Getting After It

156 - How to Endure Challenging Times - Ally Rossell

• Brett Rossell • Season 5 • Episode 156

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This episode is about what happens when life doesn’t give you a choice.

Ally joins me again to talk through how we both deal with hard things—both the ones we choose (like ultra marathons), and the ones we never would (like sickness, infertility, and grief). We share personal stories from our lives—my illness, her father’s cancer, the struggle to start a family—and explore the role that discipline, mindset, faith, and support systems have played in helping us keep going.

We talk about the voice in your head during long runs, the trap of isolation during depression, the importance of service when you're stuck in your own thoughts, and what it really means to suffer with purpose. This isn’t a highlight reel. It’s a conversation about what it looks like to keep showing up—when things are hard, when life feels unfair, and when you don’t know how or when it ends.

If you’re facing something heavy, I hope this helps.
 And if you’re not right now, you will eventually. That’s just how life works.
 Prepare for it now.

3 Key Takeaways:

There are two types of hard things: the ones you choose, and the ones you don’t. Chosen suffering (like running an ultra) builds the strength needed for unchosen suffering (like illness or loss).

Self-talk matters. The way you speak to yourself during difficult moments shapes what you believe you’re capable of. Train the voice in your head to be a coach, not a critic.

Faith, service, and connection are not optional. During unchosen suffering, these become lifelines. Depression feeds on isolation. Reach out. Put yourself in good environments. Help someone else.

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I hope today’s episode sparked something within you to pursue your dreams and unlock your true potential. If you found value in it, consider sharing it with someone who might need that same push.

Getting After It is for those who. want to silence their self-doubt. Refuse to be owned by comfort. Understand their limits are man-made and breakable. We live in a time of constant comparison. Social media drowns us in highlight reels and overnight success stories. But what most people don’t see is the grit behind it all. The reps. The quiet mornings. The sacrifices. The failures.

You are just getting started. Keep Getting After It. 

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Ally:

trying to make my way over my little sandals you've, yeah, you got your brooks, alessandra, welcome back thank you this is everyone's favorite guest.

Brett:

Oh, she's back, everyone being your favorite my favorite and um the audience is take a poll everyone sends me dms and says get ali back on the podcast whatever yeah, no one sends me dms. It's kind of sad, but that's okay you do oh yeah, that's true, so maybe that's DMs. You do oh yeah, that's true, so maybe that's why You're like put me back on. Yeah, definitely not Send me back on there. Also check it out. I got a nice sweater.

Ally:

It is very nice Getting after it, getting after it with a little exclamation point on the sleeve and checking this out.

Brett:

These are coming soon, so get prepped.

Ally:

I'm ready.

Brett:

You are ready, as always. Um, I'm glad you're on. Thank you, thanks for coming on. Um, last episode I did was all about why we do hard things Right, and that's a very important topic. Um, I mean, you emulate that. You try and do very hard things. Emulate that, you try and do very hard things. Very nice, um. I mean, right now you're doing something hard. You're trying to run 10 miles every day. That's intense, that's hard, but you do hard things, whether you like it or not. You're a pilot. You, um, are married to me.

Ally:

You oh my goodness do endurance runs.

Brett:

You're about to run an ultra marathon. You've've ran marathons before. You're always trying to help other people, which I think is hard. Um, and above all, I think you have a great attitude, which, in my opinion, is probably the hardest thing to maintain during hard times. Is your, your outlook and your thoughts, and, going along with last week's episode about why we do hard things, I want to talk about how we get through hard things.

Ally:

Interesting. So last week being chosen hard things to go through this week, how to get through hard things that are given to us.

Brett:

I mean both, yeah, unchosen versus chosen suffering. I think last week's episode was very focused on chosen suffering. It's important to do hard things. There's many benefits from it, but this one, I think, can relate for many reasons. Um, but yeah, I think unchosen versus unchosen suffering is is going to be both in this episode, and if you don't know what that means, chosen suffering is you're going to choose to decide to run a marathon. That is going to put you through suffering. You're going to be, your body's going to hurt. You're going to be doing lots of training. That's the type of chosen suffering.

Brett:

Another form of unchosen suffering is when I got sick. I didn't decide to get sick and so that was kind of just given to me. That was a challenge that was given to me. So hard things are everywhere in our lives, whether we choose them or not. But something that I think everyone can benefit from is learning how to get through them, and I don't think we have all the answers, but I know we have some, because you and I have both been through some very difficult things and we've both done some very difficult things two very different things. So how do we get through hard times? I don't want to just ask the obvious question, but do you remember a time recently that you considered hard?

Ally:

recently.

Brett:

Yeah, like, do you have a story of like a long run or something like that?

Ally:

Um, of course. Well, the most recent, if we're doing fitness first year of my 20-miler. The other day in the woods.

Brett:

Let's talk about it. Paint that picture for the listeners. Tell the story.

Ally:

All right, buckle up. I'm painting a picture. So exactly Now I felt pretty prepared going into it. I'm definitely a big visualizer and if I'm dreaming about it and daydreaming the day before, I feel like I go in a lot more confident and I'm like ready to roll. And I was doing this before this race. I was imagining the trails around, like imagining how it's gonna feel, like when am I gonna fuel up?

Ally:

yeah how am I like all the things? When I do that, I definitely feel like I go in a lot more prepared. I think my mind's way more in it and I'm more likely to finish a long run. When I do that, I definitely feel like I go in a lot more prepared. I think my mind's way more in it and I'm more likely to finish a long run when I do that and have that kind of mental prep.

Ally:

Yeah, so I get up and luckily Utah has been having on and off great weather and this was one of the on days.

Brett:

It was nice the day you ran.

Ally:

Yeah, beautiful, and I was like I always say my prayers in advance. I'm was like I always say my prayers in advance. I'm like, okay, if you want me to finish these 20 miles, you've got to give me some clouds, listen up, and he pulls through, just blowing them exactly, and I'm like, thank you. And I was nervous because I got a late start to the day.

Brett:

I was already just tired yeah probably I was daydreaming too much, but daydreaming so much you're like I can't go on this run yeah, exactly I'm tired I got up probably around 7, 7, 30, something like that.

Ally:

I think. I made it to the trailhead around 8, 8, 30, which is a little later, considering the sun's already out, and so I was more worried I was gonna get super hot but, like I said, clouds through Weather felt pretty nice considering. Well, I started my run. Everything felt wrong, starting off right from the top. Camelback could not get to work out with me. I have obviously the one that has like the water packs in the front and on the back and I couldn't adjust my straps right and my shoulder straps were just flopping off.

Ally:

I could not do anything to keep that stupid thing on annoying I was going insane because yours you have like the bungee across your chest and it stays in a good placement. Mine is a snap and I just can't get it right. So it's not my first long run with this camelback, but it was just not doing, not doing it, not doing it yeah. So the first three miles was like this is miserable. Right from the start I was running with holding my thumbs in the shoulder straps so they wouldn't move. So I'm running with my elbows.

Ally:

It was so dumb, I was so frustrated, anyway. So then I started drinking out of those water packs in the front, sooner thinking maybe it's just pulling them out. Anyways, it was a mess. Um, I continue running. After about like mile five I figure it out what was going on. It turns out my strap was twisted and idiot. So that was on me. Got it figured out running. I felt overall decent enough, but it was a little bit more elevation than I was planning on. I wanted it pretty flat on this trail. It wasn't. That's okay, but towards the end I was getting so fatigued I had not been feeling the way I planned. I couldn't get any of them. I brought a uncrustable because I want to practice eating real food, like how we're going to do in our ultra yeah I couldn't.

Ally:

I got like three bites. I'm gonna throw up, toss it. Nothing was like. I was not fueled whatsoever squirrels will want this yes, and they well, I threw it in a trash can oh okay, that's good yeah, um, but mile, I would say probably around 16.

Ally:

I was going downhill pretty fast, started cr cramping up, which is not abnormal. I stretched it out. It ended up being fine, but I was starting to get really faint and literally every step was a battle. I'm not even joking. I was like I was praying repeatedly. And I know it's just a training run and it really shouldn't be that big of a deal, but it really took everything mentally and physically for some reason.

Ally:

Like it just like was a hard day and I was like literally the last half mile. So at this point I'm like real bad struggle bus last half mile. I was like I'm going to faint right now and I just like sat on the trail right where I was Like the mile 19 and a half.

Brett:

Yeah, 19 and a half.

Ally:

Yeah, 19 and a half. I'm like I see the car right and it was like getting black, like from the corners coming in and I just like plopped down, I was like whoa, something's wrong and I just sat there for a while. I'm like I'm so close.

Ally:

It literally took me to the breaking point and I was able to complete it, obviously not the pace I wanted with the story I just gave you, but I think that was definitely a mental win, considering it was just a series of unfortunate events and a lot of it was just my body and my mind not cooperating. So I wouldn't say I had a lot of external factors that were against me, but it was very difficult and it wiped me out for a few days.

Brett:

I mean it makes sense, but you said a lot there. I want to dissect and look through because you're such a data guy.

Ally:

Look at you and your analytics.

Brett:

No, I just I think there's a lot that you said that I think we can look to and pull apart and kind of get some insight on look to and and and pull apart and kind of get some insight on um. First part is I mean you said it like you were close to passing out, like you almost blacked out- so weird and you said like every every step was a battle like.

Brett:

So, when you're in that moment, what drives you to say I'm just gonna continue running, like so many people could be like oh you know what, this is way too hard, I'm going to pass out. Like I feel like crap. The run started bad. Um, it's way more elevated than I thought it would be and they're like okay, yeah, like I'll just walk back to the car or whatever the scenario might be, but they could easily quit. What kept you going?

Ally:

you going Pop of pride. I said I was going to do 20. And so I wanted to do 20, and we have our ultra coming up. So a little bit pressure. I think I really just didn't want to be a quitter is what it is. Um, I wouldn't say there's anything fancy about it. I sometimes you get in that mindset like, okay, I'll just do two more miles and see how I feel.

Ally:

Yeah, but the nice thing with the route I was doing it was five miles out, five miles back to the car and I'd do it twice obviously yeah and so I was like, if I just got to get started, so like once I like leave the car, I'm like, okay, I just have to go to the end.

Ally:

And then it's like, okay, well, I have to make my way back to the car right somehow so it's really just getting started, because the second lap of the five mile or ten mile loop, I guess the second time I was going out, it was so hard for me to mentally leave the car to go back out for another 10 miles. But I keep telling myself I just need to leave the car because once I leave I have to get to five miles and that's fine. I, I can do five miles any day. I just got to make it home after that and that means I have to do five miles back. So I think it's just the mindset of one. I just wanted to accomplish it, be able to, and I didn't know how bad it was going to be, obviously starting, but that second 10 miles is really what got me and I think I just had to start.

Ally:

And one thing that's been difficult that you and I are both working on is understanding sometimes the pace does not matter we are not in a race right now that we're going for speed right and so I kept telling myself if I have to walk, I have to walk. If I have to crawl, to crawl. Whatever the distance is the distance yeah, that's what's important.

Brett:

It makes sense, so I like that. I I mean, I think that's that's good in a lot of aspects. Um, you set your mind on a goal, which is what I tell many people to do, and you had to readjust a couple of times, which is also what I tell people to do if they wanted to, if they want to finish their goals or like achieve them, um, but it's hard a lot of the times, and like that's where bad self-talk comes up. Um, so I'm curious what you told yourself during that run besides, like I just need to finish this thing, like what was going through your mind.

Ally:

I honestly think I'm blackout when I run. I don't remember any thoughts. Yeah, I think I. That's probably good. I think I listened to like the thump of my feet. I don't remember any thoughts. Yeah, I think I. I think I listened to like the thump of my feet. I haven't been listening to music or anything on my runs, on my long run.

Brett:

Is that because you're scared of mountain lines or because you just don't care a little bit?

Ally:

Both mountain lines is a big factor. Um, I think also I hear like a lot of benefits of not listening to anything and. I like being in touch with nature. I did it for my 18 miler and I I think I just really liked it, so I thought I should try for my 20 and I overall I I like it overall like I like just being like hearing the noises of the trees and yeah and like my feet and my breathing, and I think it is almost like comforting to be so connected with your body.

Brett:

It's almost like meditation.

Ally:

Yeah, and all my literally in my head it's like, it's like sounds like so dumb, but I'm really just like going with the groove of my feet until I start really struggling. Then I'm just straight praying.

Brett:

Yeah.

Ally:

Like I'm not even like telling myself anything, it's just like Holy Father, please. Like I, literally yeah, and I'm like talking to my dad. I Like, heavenly Father, please Get me through. Yeah, and I'm talking to my dad. I'm like my dad got me running originally.

Brett:

I'm like screw you. You better help me right now. You better get me across the finish line.

Ally:

Yeah, and so I think I have external conversations in my head a lot. I think I do that, though, because in the past I have been hard on myself, and when I go down that route I for sure quit. A hundred percent of the time I quit once I start talking crap to myself just getting in a negative headspace. Yeah, which is like this week, like monday, I was gonna run. I got one mile in. I was like I'm gonna do three and just to get some cardio in with my lift.

Ally:

Three is not even a lot for me right now and I got one in and it's because I started telling myself everything hurts, I'm, I suck, I'm not a runner like all the stuff. After one I was like my mind is gone, I'm not available for this run anymore yeah, I'm done, checked out yeah. So I can't let myself go down that route. If I start thinking negatively, I start changing my mindset to have conversations with other people mentally.

Brett:

I like that.

Ally:

Sounds like a psychopath thing, but it works for me?

Brett:

No, I don't think at all, and I mean it makes a lot of sense Like, yeah, you do have to talk to yourself many times when you're running yourself many times in, like when you're running. Um, I remember when brady was on the podcast, he's like, basically, when he was running and his iron man, he was like yelling at himself like come on, like you got this, like run up this hill, encouraging, yeah. So he was like trying to hype himself up and like get excited about what he was doing. Because I feel like, um, when we do hard things, like run ultra marathons- or a 5K for other people.

Brett:

Or a 5K, like you're out there doing something difficult, thank you, but like it'll get to the point to where it's so uncomfortable that you just want to throw in the towel. And I feel like when that happens you have to train your mind to be able to find something good, find something positive. And I mean during that time you could say like, oh yeah, well, I was listening to the trees or listening to my feet, you know, thump the ground, whatever it was. I'm out in nature. There's always something good that you can find, that kind of eases the pain a little bit. Something good that you can find that kind of eases the pain a little bit, um, but it's just crucial because, like you said, like once you let those negative thoughts slip in, then kind of derails the whole situation and like easily can throw in the towel at that point. So it's important to just always keep that perspective, I think, and it's hard, but how have you trained your mind to not be so mean?

Ally:

Actually, I know you. Your mind is mean. Sometimes, yeah, when you're running and lifting though, you're like scary mode. What, yeah, what do you? Mean, I feel like you're not the type, when you're running and it's getting hard, to be like come on, you got it. You're more like you. Little B word, get this thing going. How do you talk to yourself? Because there's no way you're going. Woohoo, good job, keep going.

Brett:

No, I'm not like that positive. I mean, I'll tell myself things like you've done this before, Like do it again, yeah.

Ally:

You look at the evidence.

Brett:

I'm a little bit harder on myself than I think I should be, but it used to be worse when we first dated, like it was really bad.

Ally:

Right.

Brett:

Now it's getting to the point, to where it's like I recognize that they're negative thoughts and or I recognize like they're mean and I try not to just think about them, Like I'll try and think about something else immediately. But yeah, there are times when I'm just like, yeah, you better get your ass in a gear, son. Yeah, Stuff like that. Yeah, More of the Goggins approach, which works for me sometimes. Um, a lot of the times it does work for me, but there are times when I like I let those thoughts win, Um, and the outcome is not what I wanted it to be, and so I feel like it's for me.

Brett:

It's a mix of being like you have the evidence, because I never want to be like, oh yeah, like you're doing so great, Because I think you have to be realistic with yourself. At least I'm realistic with myself when I'm training or doing whatever. But also I'm coming to like realize I shouldn't be that way, because there's so many people out there who can't exercise the way that I do. I've been in that situation before and I know it sucks, Like I would get jealous of people who are at the gym like lifting heavy and all these other things, but I'm just grateful I'm able to do it. And so now I come from a place of gratitude, Like even when it sucks, I'm like at least I'm out here, able to do something like this, Right.

Brett:

Um, I always think of Rob Jones. Like the guy doesn't have legs but he still runs and he does all these things and I'm sure he he wishes he had legs. And when it gets really hard, like then, I'll think about things like that. Or, um, like the reason why I was able to do my ultra last year was because I thought of Jordan most of the time and he was fighting a battle he didn't choose.

Ally:

Right.

Brett:

So it's, it's just kind of interesting, um, but I have very high expectations of myself. So I think you're right, like my self-talk isn't the best at times. Uh, it's getting better, but, um, yeah, I think it think it is important just to be able to reel those thoughts in, because once you let the negative slip in, like I said, like it derails the whole thing, okay, just slip off real quick. It's a slippery slope, as they say as they say yeah, I would agree.

Brett:

So, yeah, I'm not perfect, but I am better, so so progress just from immediately changing your thought right when it comes in.

Brett:

I try to and, um, I do have OCD, so I have a tendency to think about those thoughts a lot. But my thoughts don't define who I am. My actions do. And so if I am able to put those thoughts aside and keep working towards whatever goal I have set in front of me, if it's running, if it's at work, if it's with getting after it, if it's with you, I'll be able to focus on the outcome rather than the pain I'm in at the moment.

Brett:

It's actually something I heard about laziness. The antidote to laziness is not instead focusing on the effort, but rather the outcome. And so, like that'll push you to do the work instead of just being like, oh man, like, if it's a project that you want to start, or if you want to create a website, be like I have to go in there and do all these things, I have to create all these products, I have to write homepages, all this stuff. But instead you could just train your brain to say I'll have a website at the end of this, I just have to work really hard. Like the outcome should outweigh the effort that goes into it. If you want it bad enough. Like it's gonna be hard to get, but you got to think about how you feel when you're done interesting which I think, like for you, with the 20 miles, you hit 20 miles and you're like I did it.

Brett:

I was able to do it. It probably wasn't the pace I wanted it to be, but I didn't quit and that outcome much better than like the effort that went into it, I assume.

Ally:

Like.

Brett:

Like I'm sure you felt much better once you got it done than being like that sucked the good of the outcome outweighs the pain of the effort. Exactly.

Ally:

I see.

Brett:

Yeah.

Ally:

I agree with that.

Brett:

So it's kind of interesting. But I mean, one thing that helps me whenever I'm doing something difficult that I put myself through is just having that perspective, like I always tell myself like this will be over at some point, this is going to end, this is a finite experience. Just having that perspective, like I always tell myself like this will be over at some point. Yeah, uh, this is going to end, this is a finite experience and I can deal with this discomfort for a few more hours If it's a race I'm doing or if it's a long run, like I can deal with this pain for just a little longer.

Ally:

What about when you were sick and you didn't know what the end looked like?

Brett:

We're going gonna get there oh sorry no, you're good um, we can jump there now actually up to you because I think I yeah, that brings up a good point. So, like with with chosen suffering, a whole different mindset than when you're facing unchosen suffering. I think, um, because chosen suffering you're putting yourself in that situation so however you get through, it is going to be completely unique to you. These are just things that have helped us.

Ally:

And technically you can stop at any point when it's a chosen suffering.

Brett:

Yeah, you can quit whenever you want.

Ally:

Yeah, that's more of a character builder, which is important, but it's not going to affect your day-to-day typically.

Brett:

Yeah, but going back to unchosen suffering, so when I was sick that was a pretty hard time in my life Right, arguably one of the hardest I did feel pretty hopeless during that time, like I remember thinking like oh yeah, okay, I'm going to die Cause like no one was figuring out what was going on.

Brett:

I was just getting worse and worse. And, um, yeah, I had to hold on to hope during those times and hope that I would get better Because, like you said, like there wasn't a guaranteed outcome, if I was able to sit in this discomfort for you know, a couple of days, like maybe, maybe then I'll be fine, like there was no finish line in sight, there's no end in sight, and it was really hard for me to keep a positive attitude. But, like, hope is what grounded me and the only reason I was able to find hope is because of my faith in Jesus Christ. So that's the first thing that I would say has gotten me through unchosen suffering in my life is just my faith in Jesus Christ and my hope I can have a better outcome in the next life. If you know, I I stay true to what I believe in, this. Um, and turning to him and, like you know, you said you were praying and on the trails and stuff, which I do too. You know that.

Ally:

Um you get so good, I get pretty cheesy, yeah, but just getting very grateful.

Brett:

Like I said, it comes from a place of gratitude, but I just have to hope that the Lord hears my prayers and he hears me calling out to Him. And every time I've done that, I've just felt peace. I felt comfort. The fear was still there. Peace, I felt comfort. The fear was still there, but like when I would think about Jesus and I would turn my thoughts to him and think about what he suffered for me and made it just a little bit easier.

Brett:

Like it's hard to explain, but without Christ, like I don't know if I would be here because, like he helped me along the entire way and it's hard to explain like spiritual experiences or like what that feels. Like I'm not great at that, like I'm not good at expressing my emotions and I feel like that's a very emotional thing that I need to learn how to portray better. But that's really one of the main drivers that kept me through or got me through that hard time, which is believing that my prayers were being heard and they were, but that I was not in it alone and I never felt like it was, which is a blessing on its own, but like I think when people talk about, yeah, you have to turn over, turn yourself over to Christ or like, if they're talking about religion in any way. For me, it was just like it helped combat that loneliness that I felt because, like, my parents didn't know how I was feeling, my brothers didn't no one really knew what I was going through mentally at least Um, but Christ did. He knew exactly how I was feeling and exactly what I was going through mentally at least Um, but Christ did. He knew exactly how I was feeling and exactly what I was going through, and just knowing that helped me just keep fighting every day.

Brett:

So that's the first thing I would say is unchosen suffering for me. I always turn to Christ first, um, but I know that's not everyone's cup of tea. It should be, but it's not, and that's fine, um, and that's where things like my support system came into play. Like I was, I got very close to my family during that time, um. I also listen to podcasts, which I know that sounds silly, that it's a support system, like I would listen to jocko religiously, um, I got through all his episodes twice, which is wow, I didn't know that yeah, it's pretty good.

Brett:

Um, but just like things like that, like because I couldn't watch tv, I'd get migraines, I couldn't be on any screens, really, so things like I used to play video games to decompress can do that now. So it's like I just lay in bed and close my eyes and listen to podcasts.

Ally:

Um, pretty weird, but did you pretend that you and jocko were talking?

Brett:

no, but I like I would pretend like, okay, what would jocko tell me right now? Interesting, as weird as that is too. So yeah, I, yeah, I mean it's, it's kind of interesting, like looking back now. It's. It's comical in a sense. Um, like my buddies were joking coping.

Ally:

Yeah, that's like your coping mechanism. Yeah, I think that's fine, it's healthy.

Brett:

But yeah, my buddies were Jocko, chris and uh, so those are top three good podcast friends.

Brett:

I know, yeah, they're my best friends during that time, um, cause I basically wrote off all my other friends, um, but, yeah, so I mean like having a good support system where you can talk to people, and they might not understand what you're going through a hundred percent, but it feels good to talk to someone. Yeah, Um, and I think during those dark times, it's important to talk to other people, because isolation is easy and it's also dangerous. Um, yeah, you cannot don't isolate. If you're going through something difficult, try not to isolate, try and put yourself out there.

Ally:

Reach out to other people, because that will put you in a dark place that's like what um kim buck on your podcast she really emphasized that and she's a therapist like one of the first things that you need to be doing if you're struggling mentally is find your bubble yeah, and I, like, specifically, was talking to her about men's mental health, right, and she was explaining how, like a big um, a big cause reason. I don't know what you're talking about.

Brett:

Yeah, uh. A main driver of um depression nowadays is just the lack of connection.

Ally:

Totally makes sense.

Brett:

Which is so ironic because we're connected more now than we ever have been.

Ally:

Yeah.

Brett:

Um not physically not physically, which is why, like I love doing these kinds of podcasts where we just get to talk you and I for who knows how long, but but it's important to connect with other people and have that support system, so I would say that that pushed me through quite a bit too, just being able to rely on other people and Sounds like for chosen suffering.

Ally:

You talked a lot about good self-talk.

Brett:

Yeah.

Ally:

Do you think that also helped you in given suffering like regular hardship, day-to-day given challenges?

Brett:

I think it didn't help back then, but it helps now. Interesting One thing that I think I've learned now that I didn't know then, that endurance sports has taught me is enduring discomfort. Yeah, because when you're running like you feel discomfort in many ways your legs are tired, you're fatigued, you're starting to black out, like you said, your pack's not on right, like there's lots of things that are uncomfortable about it Toss on the heat or whatever the elements are going to throw at you that day, like it's going to be uncomfortable, and so that's like packed into a very short time, all that discomfort, and you just have to keep telling yourself like I'm going to keep going, I'm going to keep pushing myself, I'm going to not like stop until I'm done.

Ally:

No quitters.

Brett:

No quitters and I think that type of mindset when you're going through unchosen suffering or I guess those lessons that I learned during my runs and through ultra marathoning and through endurance sports has taught me patience in regular day discomforts. I would say that's more applicable now than it was back then, but back then I was probably worse on myself than I ever was. Right Like I would avoid mirrors because if I saw myself I'd be like you skeleton, you ugly pieces, like bad stuff. I beg you are a disgrace Gosh. Yeah, I would tell myself really bad stuff.

Ally:

Awesome.

Brett:

So I wasn't mentally in a great place at that time. But now I think if I went back I would be able to endure it better. But again, that was like one of the first unchosen suffering things that I've really had to go through myself.

Ally:

You've learned since then.

Brett:

I've learned since then, but I wish I could go back and tell that kid like hey, don't worry, like you're going to be fine. Yeah, I really wish I could. But yeah, I mean, I think that's what's interesting now is like now you and I are going through infertility, which is something that sucks. Like wanting to have a kid but not having the ability to have a kid sucks.

Ally:

And then everyone's having kids by accident.

Brett:

Yeah, everyone has kids we always go around our nieces and nephews which I'm grateful I love having. Yeah, it's great like have kids guys um, but like we go see our nieces and nephews and every time I leave them I'm like they're so cute it sucks like I want one yeah um, but now I'm approaching it different and it's like we're just gonna try everything we can and if that doesn't work, we'll find a new plan.

Brett:

Um, I think you and I have both had tearful nights thinking about infertility. Like it sucks, it's hard, but at the end of the day, like, like what's that mindset going to get you when you're going through a hard time Like I? I still struggle with that Sometimes. I'm like man, am I even? Am I a man? I can't even provide a child to my wife, like things like that will go through my head occasionally. But then I'm like you know what it's? Just, I have a tumor in my brain that, uh, it's benign, guys, don't worry about it. It's not growing, um, and it's too small to take out, but it has damaged my pituitary gland and so my body just doesn't produce certain hormones. So that's like a reality I have to accept. I'd be like, hey, you know what that's, that's just how it is. There's nothing I can do to change that situation. Um, and if I think about it negatively, then that's only going to put me in a worse headspace. Yeah, so I think it's, you know, learning from. I'm going to attribute it to endurance sports again.

Ally:

Really.

Brett:

Um, yeah, cause, like, those lessons taught me how to endure discomfort, and it's not a comfortable situation. It's not comfortable talking about it, it's not comfortable going to doctor's offices and trying so many different freaking shots that I have to do yeah, seriously, but it's worth it if there's a potential outcome where we have a kid. It's like focusing on the outcome rather than the effort that goes into it. So, yeah, it's weird, but I want to flip it over to you because you've also gone through a lot of unchosen suffering.

Ally:

As everyone does.

Brett:

Yeah, but I want to, I want to bring it If we, if we get too personal and just tell me we can edit this out.

Ally:

But no such thing.

Brett:

Um, I think something that like people will get mad at people when they talk about unchosen suffering versus chosen suffering is like when someone's diagnosed with a terminal illness and you had to watch your dad, you know, get cancer, go through chemo, all these things. Um, you had a very close relationship with him and that was not a suffering that he chose, but your family got through and I think you're stronger than like from what you've told me, than you ever have been really like. Closer maybe not, but it might be speaking for you.

Ally:

But to each other. Yeah, oh yeah.

Brett:

But like how did you get through those times?

Ally:

Well, everything you've talked about has been a spot on good plan. Obviously, everyone's own experience is going to tweak a little differently, but of course, faith is like the hugest thing ever.

Brett:

Yeah, let me ask you about that. How did faith get you through that moment?

Ally:

I got into Christian music a lot, a lot of worship music.

Brett:

She still likes it, by the way.

Ally:

I still like it. I don't listen to it as much as I should.

Brett:

It's really cute.

Ally:

Every time things get tough, though, the playlist makes its way back around, yeah, which is good. I'm glad. I think, the idea of just always. I think the reason I like christian music, though, is because one it invites the spirit, like there's peace where people are praising the Lord.

Brett:

Yeah.

Ally:

And so hearing that through song, I think helps me a lot. Just because, even when I was like driving down the road, you're having all these negative thoughts, usually it's strictly out of fear, and so I'd have Christian music on, because then, even like my unconscious is hearing that you can overcome and that Jesus paid the price, like rely on him, and so, even without me necessarily just listening to the lyrics a ton, you're still in an environment that is uplifting, and so, rather than just sulking and just being depressed in a bedroom with the lights off and the windows closed, I tried to put myself in environments that would be encouraging, uplifting. I went to church a lot.

Ally:

I went to the temple a lot. I listened to a lot of Christian music. I try to be around other people who I find uplifting and so I know you obviously were really sick and so it makes sense that you were in a dark room and you can only listen to podcasts and all that stuff.

Brett:

Yeah, Everything I was doing you did not do.

Ally:

Yeah, I didn't do anything that you did, but you also felt like really crappy. Yeah, I had nothing I felt horrible emotionally more than physically, and it took a lot in me to go see the people I love still or like just get out of the house, honestly, because depression, my depression was situational, of course, but it prevents you from wanting to do literally anything yes like it's diabolical that it takes so much strain just to get out of bed.

Ally:

Nevertheless, go and contact a friend, get out of the house, go do anything like go exercise, whatever it is, go to work, and it's so, so hard to do those things. But I recognize that there is a reward to that. Like I, I recognize an obvious difference from when I was putting myself in situations where I could feel the spirit or be around happy people and all that stuff, all that stuff versus isolation and quietness where my head could just spin out of control. So I'll say that's the first thing absolutely is putting yourself in those environments that you can feel peace and joy, even if you're not able to feel it right. Then, which is most likely the case when I was at my worst, it doesn't matter who I'm around, what I'm listening to, where I was, you're depressed and that's just how it is and that's how it's going to be and that's okay.

Ally:

But the effort is there and you can take confidence that you're doing the right steps and, over time, as continuing those habits of putting yourself in good environments, then, as the not that grief lightens. But you have good days, you have bad days. If you're still in that habit you'll be able to see like those little breaks through the crack, like a little bit of light in your life. And I think that's where people get stuck in the pain of grief and the darkness is because you're not letting yourself be in places where you can see cracks of light.

Ally:

And you just got to hang on to that, even though it's hard to say, but that was a huge, huge thing for me. I obviously spent a lot of time with my family and I tried to make a lot of memories. My dad was like a big jokester and stuff, so he made the situation lighter, which I'm grateful for. He wasn't like woe was me, like I'm dying, except like he would. He'd crack jokes and he would like try to make fun of the situation a little bit and I know he was doing it for himself.

Ally:

A lot of it I mean, and us of course, but I imagine that was his coping mechanism to be able to joke that he has a port in his chest to get chemo, like. I believe that he just had the personality to lift where he stood and I think I just able to understand who he was as a character in a way that I can remember him forever and I try to live the way he taught us since he's passed and I think it helps me feel closer to him and so, although the grief and the sadness and the emptiness is still there, it has changed from just straight sorrow to a sacred place where I can live the lessons he's taught and I can take some attributes from him and, by doing so, can feel closer to him.

Brett:

Yeah.

Ally:

Which is so special.

Brett:

I think it is special He'd be so proud of you for everything that you're doing.

Ally:

I hope so. I think he would be. I think that's one of the hardest things is when things are good, because you can't tell him the good stuff yeah and obviously you wish he was there when things were sad, but now I have you, for when I'm sad I still want him there when I'm happy, to be able to tell him the things I'm doing, that he helped push me to become, and it's just too bad that he's not here to see that outcome.

Brett:

Well, he checks in on us every now and then with big birds.

Ally:

True. You should probably explain that.

Brett:

Oh, every time that, um, I don't remember who told me this, but I thought it was your grandpa. It might've been my grandpa. Um, it was my grandpa, you're right. But every time that I would see like a big bird outside, like a Falcon or a Hawk or an Eagle on the rare occasions, um my grandpa would always say like hey, there's a loved one looking over us. And so every time Allie and I are in the car or like on a hike or something, we see a big bird. We're like there's Tim areas.

Brett:

That son of a gun, that son of a gun, that son of a gun, but no, I think that's I don't know. I one thing that I I think is really admirable about your family, um, is how you guys keep him alive, because he has like, from how you talk about him and from how your brother and your mom talks about him, he changed a lot of people's lives and he was a very great man don't get me wrong, we still make fun of him.

Ally:

I think he would appreciate that though yeah, yeah, I mean we don't need to put him on that high he was bald yeah, ew, he had a cul-de-sac, but so I think like treating it like him as if he was still here, you know, like obviously you see them in like a brighter light because they're gone, yeah, but sometimes I'm like wait, he was actually so annoying sometimes.

Brett:

But all in good fun, all in good fun yeah, no I agree I'm very grateful for that yeah, it's important, like important, like it's like um with my I'm not trying to compare my sickness to your dad passing away.

Brett:

It's not not even close, but, like from the lessons I learned from that time, I've taken them into who I am and I think it's made me who I am today. This podcast wouldn't be alive if I didn't go through that. Um, same thing with you, I think. Like you know, you said it like I want to take these lessons that he's taught me and, and you know, show them that. Hey, I did listen, or like whatever you're trying to get across, right? Um, it's important to keep them alive, but unchosen suffering, I think, is the worst one.

Ally:

Oh, absolutely, and you and I were just talking about how, of course, it's been kind of heavy week last week yeah and I was, like, just felt like things after things, and like the news is always depressing, as is, of course, but it feels like an eerie feeling it has been feeling so weird and twitter's been depressing I can't go on it right now, but like, yeah, so to give some context to listeners if you haven't heard, but um, charlie kirk was assassinated on september 10th if someone hasn't heard that well, there's a lot that went on that last week.

Brett:

Then there's a school shooting in evergreen colorado. Um, there's a lot that went on. I don't know what else.

Ally:

There was a guy that got beheaded in front of his family at a hotel oh yeah and a few days before charlie, the girl got stabbed on the bus. That's right, yeah and then it was 9 11 after charlie, after charlie, obviously. Yeah, just a heavy week yeah, I just feel like nothing was uplifting yeah and everyone's souls were racked so what do you do during those times like?

Brett:

what do you do during times like this?

Ally:

I rely on my husband, just kidding. No, I think it goes back. It goes back to the same things that I did in any form of grief or sadness is put myself in good environments first thing. Do like, rely on faith, let the the spirit do its job, the holy ghost. But as I put myself in good environments, I'm very much an optimistic person. I think I think I'm realistic. I understand that things can suck, but I have so much faith in things always working out, whatever that looks like, whatever the timeline is. I because, especially now that my dad's gone, I think I have such a stronger faith in an afterlife and happiness forever and all eternity and eternal families.

Ally:

Think because of that I have such a a more optimistic view of whether it's a year, 10 years, when you die like, things will be happy at some point yeah and maybe I shouldn't say happy, but you can feel joy still yeah and obviously, like last week, nothing was affecting me personally in my day-to-day life just because I felt the heaviness, like I still have my job. It wasn't like a direct relation. You can still put yourself in the good environment, still be optimistic about the future and, even though you don't see it right now, you can have a hope for things to come.

Brett:

Yeah, I agree with that. I also like this might not be good advice, but this is what I do when things to come. Yeah, I agree with that. I also like this might not be good advice, but this is what I do. When like things get heavy, I just go off social media True Like, because don't look at it.

Brett:

Yeah, when I, when I go on there, like it just it's just negative. Like people are talking to you know the Charlie Kirk thing. People were like just shocked like everyone or some people were telling stories about him or like whatever it was. But it's just like you know what I it's horrible that this happened, but I don't need to see this 24 7. So I think, just like small things like that, like you said, so put yourself in good environments, like turn your phone off, go walk somewhere.

Ally:

Yeah.

Brett:

Get out.

Ally:

I always like the phrase. This is kind of seems like a jump, but if you want a village, you need to be a villager. And I think when you think about like feeling joy and like being able to be more optimistic and all these things that we've been talking about, and you say, get off social media, I think going back how it was before technology maybe not technology, but social media and like, um, just knowledge at your fingertips like 2008 yeah 2008 take us 2008 I think facebook was around, but that was like it maybe

Ally:

twitter, myspace potentially, but going back to not like that you have to not have a smartphone and all this stuff, but doing what you can. Because it seems like back then they had all these human connections and it seems like that's when things were prime as far as um, community and human interactions and less diagnosis and therapy needed, because you had people to talk to and you had friends and stuff. And if you want that environment, if you want to have people in your corner, those connections, if social media depresses you, then be a villager, be the one who's making those connections, be the one that puts the phone away, goes on, hikes, tries to interact with new people join the getting after it community.

Ally:

Join the getting after it community, going to run, doing those things and be the person, then Be the person you want to be. If you're not liking the feeling of all the negativity around you, most things you can block out just by turning off your phone. However, the things that's, the sickness, the death, all that stuff you can't turn off your phone. That's not going to fix the problem. But it goes back to what you were talking about with your faith and the connections and being in good environments.

Brett:

If someone was going through something really tough right now, what would you tell that person?

Ally:

Well, I'd first ask how their relationship with Jesus is, but I'm biased, yeah, um, that's always the very first thing I do and, honestly, you and I talk about this quite a bit, just between us. It's hard advice to get to give and to get, I guess but it's like how often are you thinking about yourself? I think so much depression and sadness or I guess I shouldn't say that, but I think it's amplified when we're constantly thinking about our own problems and we're constantly thinking about ourselves. And I've had friends that had to be like hey, by the way, it might help if you stop being so selfish. And it's terrifying, and I hope I don't come across that blunt and rude, but it's because we've had experiences that we know what brings us joy is when we turn outwards. If you're all in your head, if you can't stop thinking of the same negative stuff, if you're so against everything about your life and everything seems like it's going wrong, maybe it is because you're so focused on it and maybe it's time to go focus on somebody else.

Brett:

I agree very much. I mean, it wasn't too long ago where I was in a very dark depressive phase.

Ally:

You were sick.

Brett:

I was sick, but I'm talking about like when we first got married and you were sick. I was sick, um, but it was worse back then. I just want to make that clarification Like oh, he was, yeah, different type of sick.

Ally:

You weren't, like, bedridden the same way, but I mean your medications had changed.

Brett:

There was a lot of, a lot of a lot of change going on like your hormones and chemically things were still off, yeah, but like to your point, during that time, one of the reasons I was depressed was because I was thinking about it so much and then it just got into this vicious cycle like I would only think about it and I would like all my thoughts turned around myself, like they all focused on myself and excuse me. I remember, um, we had a talk one night and after that I was like I need to change any step up and I repented to you and to god and to tim because I felt bad.

Ally:

Um, my dad's like what am I supposed to do?

Brett:

yeah, like great thanks, um, but like I started serving you a lot more and trying to focus on other people and once I did that, like it's so weird and you might not believe me, but like it was like a flip switch.

Ally:

I witnessed it. Wow, flip switched.

Brett:

Flip switched. Wait, switch flipped. It's like a switch flipped.

Ally:

Yes.

Brett:

You flipped a switch on.

Ally:

Wow, that was hard to understand, for some reason.

Brett:

Yeah, that was weird.

Ally:

It's true, though I witnessed it.

Brett:

Yeah, but it really does. It can make a huge difference. And now like it can make a huge difference, and now like I, I hold that lesson tight because I never want to be in that situation again, and like I will always try and focus on you first, before myself, and I feel like that's just an easy way to not be depressed, true?

Brett:

and, and it makes me happy, makes you happy and I want to make it very clear I I still deal with depression and I have OCD, but every time that I decide to help someone else out, like Allie said, it really does it takes my mind off myself. I don't need to be thinking about myself that much. I'm not that great of a person. I think of Marcus Aurelius the emperor, who hired a man to follow him around, saying you are a man like you're not a god. You might be the emperor of rome, but you're a man.

Brett:

and sometimes I have to remind myself that like I'm just some guy, like I'm not special you're special to me well, yeah, because you're my wife, right, but like that's really it, like I'm just a human yeah and so, yeah, I think it takes a lot of self-reflection, which is why, like journaling has been so important to me and even during dark times, like I'll journal how I feel, and it kind of feels like I have an outlet. Yeah, but yeah, it's interesting.

Ally:

I think it's literally I can't speak highly enough about service, which is funny because sometimes I have such a bad attitude about service.

Brett:

Everyone does, it's inconvenient.

Ally:

Yeah, and I'm not talking about like when, I'm talking about service, like if you're being selfish, go do something for someone else. I'm not saying you got to bring brownies over to your neighbor every day.

Brett:

You should If they're over 85.

Ally:

If they're over 85, they deserve brownies every day. But besides that, I'm not saying you got to go do some extravagant things, but even just selfishness in terms of like what your thoughts like are consumed with, and I think that that has one. I think that's one of the biggest things that changed our marriage yeah, I think so too I could do better at serving you. Still, he's so nice I go. And what do you say?

Brett:

you need some water thirsty. I trained him so well sometimes like, yeah, I'll be going to bed, and like I just finished stretching and like putting you know lotion on my hands or whatever I'm doing to hydrate myself, and then I'm about to get in bed and Allie goes and then I say, oh, you're thirsty, huh, so thirsty, so I go get you some water and you're so good at getting me water. But it's kind of fun, like it's kind of a fun bit, honestly, yeah and I'm like, oh, I better go get your water.

Brett:

But like I think it's a joke and I'm really just like helping you out actually, just like don't want to get out of bed like this is great I know, so I'm very grateful and I mean, you do a lot of stuff for me too too I hope you do a lot of things I hate, sorry, go ahead. Wait, you just put it on a tangent with things you hate. I was going to say you do a lot of things that I hate.

Ally:

What does that mean?

Brett:

Yeah, that's a good point.

Ally:

You do a lot of things that I hate doing. I was like what the heck I'm like? Maybe this is a topic for a different time.

Brett:

No, I was going to say you help me out with the laundry. You go to the grocery store when I don't want to go.

Ally:

That's hilarious.

Brett:

Those kind of things.

Ally:

That's so funny. So yeah, if I had to give advice to a friend, it'd be one. What's the relationship with Jesus? Because your focus should be one, god, two others, three, yourself. And if your order is scrambled if your priorities are different. Formula, good formula and you love formulas, I do love math so if things aren't in that order, you're more likely to be in a state of selfishness and probably more likely um symptoms of depression yeah in our experience, zero caveats right, this is all relative to us. Right.

Brett:

Let's wrap this up, because I think there's a lot of things that we've talked about and I want to keep the lessons sharp and clear. Okay, and I think those are all good pieces of advice. That formula is pretty solid for getting through hard times.

Ally:

Like god first, others second, yourself last or comparable to god, if that's your thing yeah, whatever it is a greater purpose.

Brett:

Yeah, just try and think outside of yourself, um, and if you're hearing this and you're getting mad, maybe you need to do it. You need to think about someone else.

Ally:

Maybe it's stinging for a reason.

Brett:

Yeah, and I won't pull my punches. Go do something nice, but really chosen. Suffering, I feel like, is a great teacher with many life lessons. It teaches you how to endure and, in my opinion, it gets you ready and able to handle the hard things that come up in your life. And so why we do hard things, I think, ties in perfectly to that. We do them so we're ready for moments where we don't get to choose when it's hard, and so I think you know next time, if you're going through something difficult, always feel free Like you can reach out to me. I'm happy to help where I can.

Ally:

Me too.

Brett:

Allie too and check out siblings in crime. It might give you a little chortle, you might chortle.

Ally:

It might make you skilled.

Brett:

No, but I mean, you guys have a good dynamic though. You guys are fun to listen to. Yeah, I feel like crime. That's not your forte, Dina, Don't worry about it, but anyways, I think it's just important. And my last thing I'll say is just don't give up. Like with Allie's run, you know it wasn't as fast as she wanted it to be, but she finished. And when I was sick I could have given up many times, but I didn't. Allie could have thrown herself under the blankets when her dad was passing away from cancer and taking that attitude and think that the world threw that on her and get angry about everything, but instead decided to think outside of herself and, um, I think it's just important to not give up. Like there's so much more to live for. The trials that we go through are but a moment and they always hopefully end. Um, but yeah, just never give up. Stay in the fight.

Ally:

I like that.

Brett:

Thanks for coming on.

Ally:

Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure, always fun.

Brett:

I get to look at you for like an hour.

Ally:

You look at me all the time. What do you mean? I?

Brett:

know, but like directly.

Ally:

You're ridiculous.

Brett:

People are going to start tuning out. Anyways, I appreciate you guys for listening to this episode and, as always, keep getting after it.