Getting After It

146 - B.J. Allen - The Compensating Power of Christ

• Brett Rossell • Season 4 • Episode 146

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What if your weakness wasn’t a flaw—but a space for grace?

In this episode, I sit down with B.J. Allen, a business professor at BYU and author of The Compensating Power of Christ, to explore the intersection of faith, psychology, and performance. We dive into everything from confidence in sales to imposter syndrome in life—and how preparation, storytelling, and spiritual awareness shape how we show up in the world.

B.J. shares his journey from corporate life to academia, his teaching philosophy, and the uncomfortable but essential role of moving outside your comfort zone. We go deep into the psychology of persuasion, the mechanics of storytelling, and how empathy—not manipulation—is the real currency of sales.

But the heart of this conversation lies in something more eternal.

We explore the idea that Christ not only forgives but compensates—that He fills in the gaps of our stewardship, our pain, and our imperfection. B.J. unpacks this often-overlooked aspect of the Atonement: how Christ doesn’t just wait on the other side of death to restore what’s been lost—but actively refines, strengthens, and multiplies our efforts now.

This episode is for anyone who’s ever felt unqualified, uncertain, or unworthy. And for those who have the courage to believe that what we lack, Christ supplies.

Three Takeaways:

Confidence is built through preparation—not personality. Sales, life, and faith all require rehearsal before resilience.

Storytelling is sacred. Whether in business or belief, narratives forge the deepest human connection.

Christ’s power compensates, not just redeems. The Savior makes up the difference in our teaching, parenting, stewardship, and pain—if we let Him in.

Listen if you’re curious about:

  • How psychology and empathy drive great marketing and sales
  • Teaching with conviction and clarity
  • The Stoic idea of controlling what you can—and surrendering the rest
  • How Jesus Christ’s Atonement applies to more than just sin

Check out B.J.'s Website

Buy his book on Amazon

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I hope today’s episode sparked something within you to pursue your dreams and unlock your true potential. If you found value in it, consider sharing it with someone who might need that same push.

Getting After It is for those who. want to silence their self-doubt. Refuse to be owned by comfort. Understand their limits are man-made and breakable. We live in a time of constant comparison. Social media drowns us in highlight reels and overnight success stories. But what most people don’t see is the grit behind it all. The reps. The quiet mornings. The sacrifices. The failures.

You are just getting started. 

Keep Getting After It. 

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Brett:

Yeah, I actually came, I did it.

BJ Allen:

I came and did a sales training at pattern, maybe like a year and a half ago, maybe longer than that.

Brett:

I think I remember that and I actually I went to your class to do a like a sales interview.

BJ Allen:

Yes, I can't remember what it was, but I knew you looked familiar, but yes, it was a. You came and did a like a sales competition for my class. Yeah, yeah, that's what it was a sales competition for my class.

Brett:

Yeah, that's what it was. It was fun. It was a great time. Oddly enough, my friend's wife was in your class Hannah Howard, now Hannah Lott. It's a small world. Seriously, I appreciate you taking some time to chat with me today. I know you're busy and you have a lot going on, but it means a lot, so thank you.

BJ Allen:

Yeah, absolutely.

Brett:

And I sent over just a list of questions that I was hoping you and I could go into. But the first one is a little bit interesting because it kind of tugs in my passion a little bit with teaching. I'm obviously not a teacher we talked a little bit about my professional background a little bit but it's something I've always enjoyed doing is like teaching other people, helping them learn something new, and I've always valued teachers who take the time to actually give me the tools and insights that I need to succeed in whatever it is. But how'd you go through and eventually decide to become a professor?

BJ Allen:

Yeah, so I worked, so I graduated from BYU with an undergrad in business and then I worked for probably four or five years and so becoming a professor was the farthest thing from my mind. And then I started studying for the GMAT because I want to go to business school, and just kind of started thinking about, like what do I want to be when I grow up?

BJ Allen:

And I had, like you know, like a midlife crisis, like 27, whatever I was, I was in my crisis at like 27, whatever I was, and I just started talking to some of my former professors and they just said, hey, you should think about getting a PhD, because being a professor is a mix of teaching and then a lot of kind of business analytics theory and a lot of the stuff I was doing kind of in my job around analysis and putting together kind of storytelling using data.

BJ Allen:

But as an academic, you get to research what you want rather than like what your boss or your company tells you to, and so I started research. I just started researching more into it and and I thought like, yeah, like this is really what I want to do. But no one in my family had really kind of like got a PhD. I had maybe one or one sibling who went to to grad school, and so I didn't really know what that meant. Yeah, and so I just started applying to PhD programs and luckily got in somewhere, and then that kind of was like my professor journey, and so I knew I wanted to do it because I like the things that professors do, I like the research, I love working with young adults, I love teaching, and so it's kind of like the best of a lot of different worlds.

Brett:

Yeah, so I actually didn't know that about getting your PhD You're allowed to go and research topics on your own, and is that kind of how, like papers are published and that kind of thing?

BJ Allen:

Yeah, so you're publishing in academic journals. That's like the, the currency of academics, and so that's how you get tenure, that's how you kind of get promoted is by publishing, and the other things are important, but academic publishing is the primary thing that you do, and so you really kind of just choose topics that you think are interesting, but other people also have to think they're interested interesting because everything gets peer reviewed.

BJ Allen:

You know you work on projects for two, three years. It's a super painful process and then you publish an academic journal and then you move on to the next project.

Brett:

Interesting. Okay, so I mean I know you, you currently teach business and particularly sales and marketing, correct? So were there other topics that you considered going into before you actually decided on those two?

BJ Allen:

No, I always knew I wanted to do marketing I love. My emphasis in my undergrad was in marketing. All my jobs were either analytics marketing strategy or marketing analytics, and so I knew I loved the connection of business creativity with people like I wanted the people side of business. So I knew marketing was kind of always what I wanted to do.

Brett:

Yeah, that's fun. I mean marketing is. It really is a great opportunity to connect with people in that way. I actually started an agency with my brothers when I was back in 2018. It was just a little digital advertising agency and we had some clients. But it was always fun, like learning what their voice was and then figuring out how to connect with their customers like through that voice, through their product with their customers, like through that voice and through their product. But there's definitely some like psychology that's goes into marketing, especially when you're trying to persuade people to buy your product or or try your service.

BJ Allen:

What's your take on the psychological piece of marketing and even sales?

BJ Allen:

Yeah, I mean so if we rewind, you know to, to many years ago, like kind of the genesis of marketing was the psychology of business.

BJ Allen:

It was kind of like economists looking and saying, hey, usually, you know, as price goes up, demand goes down, but that's not always the case and that doesn't make any sense to us. And so all of a sudden they realize that, hey, actually like we need to study how consumers think they. All of a sudden they realize that hey, actually like we need to study how consumers think, and realizing that sometimes this price goes up, demand goes up because people use price as a valuation of quality. And so it was understanding, kind of the psychological mechanisms by which consumers make decisions, you know, and a lot of times I think the psychology of business gets a bad rap. We think about, like tricking people in the buying stuff or you know, we use red and advertising because it makes, give people a sense of urgency. But there's also kind of this psychology part of marketing which is how do we use the way the brain thinks to create human connection?

Brett:

Yeah.

BJ Allen:

Right. So, for example, in cells, we know that mirroring you know which is using like similar mannerisms and tonality is the next person creates a sense of trust. Or we learn from psychology the type of questions we can ask that helps us connect to people and helps us create, uh, like a sense of, a sense of I'm sorry, what's the word? I'm looking for? Empathy. All right, let me let me start that over. So psychology teaches the type of questions we can ask that helps us create connection with a sense of empathy towards our customer. And so the psychology part of marketing isn't just about, you know, creating FOMO buy one, get one free. It's about. It's about creating authenticity, authentic relationships, creating human connection within marketing and sales.

Brett:

Um, I love that. I mean there's a couple of brands that I think of right off the top of my head that I connect with on that level Um, where I'm not only am I interested in their product, but I love seeing them grow. I love seeing what they're doing, and I'm curious if there's any companies that you think do really well with that.

BJ Allen:

Yeah, any brand that tells a story is usually around for a long time, right, and they they'll have, they'll have very loyal consumers. They'll be pretty price, inelastic consumers will will pay kind of whatever. So I mean really like, if you look at the top brands and, uh, in the world, I mean those are usually like the ones that people are most loyal to.

Brett:

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. You know Apple, nike, adidas, even like there's team Nike, there's team Adidas.

BJ Allen:

Yeah, I mean so yeah, any brand that really again creates an emotional connection, because that's what that's, what kind of entices people to purchase things. So you look at, like the apples and the Nikes and the Cokes of the world. You look at, you know, smaller brands that are still very popular, like Lululemon, you know, but you look at really niche brands, like a Harley Davidson, because, like they, they mean something, the brand stands for something different and so, like that, yeah, that's kind of what I think about when I say kind of you know, meaningful brands that tell a story.

Brett:

Yeah, that's interesting and, um, I mean, storytelling has been something I've been trying to work on and everything I do, just because I recognize that's one of the ways that humans connect the best is. You know, we used to tell stories around a campfire and that has happened for generations and that's something that's like to get a message across really well. A story should be behind that, to push it forward and to at least get your point across to the end consumer or whoever it is what you're trying to communicate to them.

BJ Allen:

Yeah, totally, and you mentioned earlier that at BYU I teach professional selling right, and this is like one of the concepts that we talk about, and I have guest speakers come in and talk about storytelling within cells, because you mentioned, you know, like the very first communication among humans was storytelling. Because that's how we relate concepts right, like the great teachers of the world, the Confucius, the Jesus Christ of the world, like they taught through storytelling, because that's what creates emotional connection. And so, whether it's marketing in sales or in anything or like in a sales perspective, if someone was to ask you a question as a seller, you have a choice you can just give an immediate answer or you can give an answer in a story. And you give the answer in a story, it's a lot more likely to resonate with the consumer and it's a lot more likely to create an emotional response.

Brett:

Yeah, do some of those guest speakers have any like tips that they say if you want to improve your storytelling, or where to start on that? Did they kind of leave your class with anything like that?

BJ Allen:

Yeah, you know, one common thing that when we talk about you know what are some things that separate good storytellers from bad storytellers is great storytellers create like a sense of tension in their story. So, rather than saying, hey, brett, you use this product right and you're going to love it and it's going to make your family happy, and and tell a story that way, if I can create like like an emotional tension. So, brett, maybe you've had a problem like this. Right, I was working with someone who had this was their issue that resonate with you. Right, I was working with someone who had this was their issue that resonate with you, and you're like, yes, like that's an issue everyone in my industry has.

BJ Allen:

So now, now you're more engaged in the story because you're feeling the pain of the problem. And then if I could then show you kind of the solution as a salesperson, that's like a much better story than just using the story as a way to talk about features and how my product is going to benefit you, which is important. But you're more likely to see the benefit if you can see the problem and this problem is more salient to you, then now you really want a solution. So it's kind of like the end of the story, like, well, what happens next? Yeah, yeah, as a customer, like, well then, what's the solution? Yes, like I. Well then, what's the solution? Yes, like I feel the pain. Now I want you to tell me how to solve it.

Brett:

Yeah, I mean that that's funny. You bring that out Cause that's actually what our good friend Bryce tells me every day. He's like, make sure that you have them uncover the pain, like, say something that gets them to at least relate to you, um, maybe share some information, but they need to be the ones that are talking about the pain they're feeling, because then you can be like oh well, guess what? We have something to help with that. So I think that's interesting and definitely I think psychology plays a role, at least with the things that I do, with trying to reach out to people, talk to them about their problems, see if there's any solutions that we have that could help them.

Brett:

Um, and it's. It's been a journey and a learning experience for me to be able to be like every situation is different, but something that we do and some kind of pain that they're feeling can work together to create some like a solution for their, their problem. Um, it's just really, you know, digging and uncovering that like this is a weird analogy, but I always think of myself as an archeologist, like, you know, one brush and trying to get to the dinosaur bone, and then you know, being careful, and it just uncovers it, and then you can have that conversation when the time comes up.

BJ Allen:

Yeah, I think that's what makes marketing and sales so exciting. That's why I loved all my business classes. I even thought accounting and finance was exciting, but I wanted something that was more consumer-centric, because it's exciting to work with people. That's what we yearn for as humans, this human connection people Like that's what we, that's what we yearn for as humans, is human connection. And so if you could do that in like a job in a business setting and think about you know how are people going to approach this problem or how are people thinking about my brand, I just think that that's a lot more interesting.

Brett:

Yeah, yeah, and you said it like that's. A key tenant of marketing is show them how your product gets rid of the pain or makes their life easier. Like, whatever it is, it's a solution to improve their life. Um, so, obviously not every product is going to fit that mold, but, um, like we've. We've probably seen many examples of bad marketing, which I'm curious if you have any favorites.

BJ Allen:

Um, you know bad marketing. You know bad marketing. You know so, like one of my primary uh, one of my primary areas of research is is the integration of marketing and new product innovation. So you know, when I think about like bad marketing, I just think of kind of the bad product introductions like like new coke, right is, is like a classic example. Um yeah, but bad marketing.

Brett:

There's not really a lot of a lot of uh, a lot of uh bad campaigns that come to mind yeah, I have seen, though, like on linkedin, people will post things all the time of like, hey, I saw this marketing ad and it was great or um, vice, whatever it is. But I always see ones where one company decides to do like a slander campaign against another and it always backfires on them because then that company like, let's say, it's McDonald's bashing on Burger King, then Burger King will take that ad and repurpose it to make themselves look better. So I don't know. I mean, I just think it's interesting how people can really play on anything like find whatever connects. And I think if, in my own opinion, if McDonald's is taking shots at Burger King and Burger King fires back with something different, people are going to be like, okay, yeah, there we go, burger King. It just makes it more relatable. I don't know, just from my own experience.

BJ Allen:

Yeah, you know. So, like slander and competitive campaigns don't normally work if you are like the top dog or if you're fighting against someone who's also a market leader. So, like a Burger King McDonald's would be funny if they went back and forth. But if McDonald's just started ragging on Burger King, like most people wouldn't really resonate with that. But, like, competitive campaigns work pretty effective for David versus Goliath situations. Consumers really love an underdog story, like we love one the underdog. You know the Cinderella at March Madness, and so I think about, you know, like Body Armor. When they first came out, their campaigns were always hey, like Gatorade, we'll take it from here. Like you're an outdated sports drink and we're the new, innovative. And consumers don't normally look at that and think, oh, like, that's really mean Right, because they're like yeah, like we love, we love it, david. Like go after them.

BJ Allen:

Yeah love it, david, like go after them, yeah, and so normally, like at least you know some of the studies that I've done is they're really they're usually not effective, unless it's unless it's like an underdog. So like when apple first came out, you know they always had the the apple verse pc commercials, where where the pc, microsoft, were seen as like this like dorky businessman and Apple is kind of this cool designer, because like they were so new and they were so different. Now, if they were to do something like that now, like people would just be like you're a big bully, like why are you doing?

BJ Allen:

that Probably true, right, and so I think that's kind of the different perspective on those type of campaigns is are consumers going to see you as a bully? If they do, they won't like it. If they're going to see you as like an underdog, like David versus Goliath, then most people will resonate pretty well with it.

Brett:

Yeah, I think that's cool. I mean it's fun to see people, just with their own creativity, figure out like what's the best way to bring the product to the market. I think that's always fun to see. But I'm curious, bringing it back to your classroom and being a professor what is it that you really enjoy about teaching, about working with young adults and helping them? What is it that's like really been like hey, this is the job that I was meant to do, or this is fulfilling for me.

BJ Allen:

So I've always loved, I've always loved young adults. I mean I have, like I have, five younger brothers and I have, you know, a ton of of nephews. I've had jobs where I worked with young adults. So I like, I've always loved this age group.

BJ Allen:

There's just a lot of fun, there are a lot of energy and in my particular classes so I teach professional selling and advanced selling at BYU and they're they're upper level electives, and so students are kind of started to realize, like holy crap, I'm about to graduate, like I should really, you know, know something, because I'm gonna have to get a job and so, like in those in the classes, like the upper level electives, students are really, for the most part, they're engaged, like they really want to learn, and so it makes such a a great environment for what I call engaged learning, which is not just like me talking to them, but me learning from them and them learning from me kind of at the same time, and particularly teaching a really fun class like CELS, right, we have a ton of discussion, we have a ton of role plays.

BJ Allen:

The students learn from each other, do they role plays with each other? They do role plays with me, and so it makes like it just makes a really fun environment. But I also learn a lot from them. Like I ask questions. A lot of times they think I'm just asking questions to see if they, you know, to make them think, but I really want to know, like what do?

Brett:

you think?

BJ Allen:

You guys are all out in the world, you're engaging, you're looking at marketing campaigns, like how do you think about this process? And also just you know you think about this process and also just you know teaching forces you to really learn a lot about the subject. It forces you to kind of engage, particularly business, which is a very applied science, and so it's allowed me to engage with a ton of different marketing and sales professionals who live here in Utah and also across the nation and honestly, that's one of the coolest parts of my job is I interact with tons of salespeople because I also lead the sales program, I help students find jobs, recruiting, and so there's just a ton. That's really fun. But if I had to boil it down to a couple things, I would say like there's a, the, this youth, or the, the young adults. They're very energetic, they bring a lot of life and for the most part, like they really are eager to learn.

Brett:

Yeah.

BJ Allen:

And they're.

BJ Allen:

they're willing to engage, they're willing to do what you ask of them and it's really fun to see kind of the light come on when they're like oh, wow, like I see now why you taught us this and like honestly, you know that probably happens more when they graduate than it does during class. I mean I have a lot of students reach out and they're like hey, like your class was interesting I I thought it was cool, but now like it's way more valuable now that I'm actually working in sales and I see like why you taught us a certain way and like I'm totally okay with that because that's how everyone learns. No one really appreciates it until they have to apply it and um, but anyway, yeah, I mean it really is like a fantastic job.

Brett:

Yeah, I love what you just said too. Nobody really learns until you have to apply it, and that is something, unfortunately, I think is true in my life and I think in many others and many others. Recent example, I was talking to my wife about we're training for an ultra marathon coming up and I was telling her like I'm sore and I'm tired all the time, and I was like I think I just have to slow down my pace, like I think I might just be going too fast for too long. And she goes. I've been telling you that for like three months now and I'm like, yeah, well, I had to apply it first. You know, I had to make sure that it was actually truthful. But I can imagine, as a teacher, that's something that's, and as a professor, as someone who wants to help their students learn that has to be rewarding, like to be able to like okay, you actually applied what I taught you.

BJ Allen:

Like that's good it is. It is really exciting Because you know, as an instructor well, that's, you know most instructors they put a lot of effort into their class, put a lot of effort into their teaching, into learning the material and, uh, as a professor, if you can show a lot of passion for what you're teaching, the students will appreciate that. But yeah, when the light comes on, they like but yeah, when the light comes on, that's a super meaningful experience as a teacher.

Brett:

Yeah, I like that. I'm curious With professional selling. One thing that I've recognized in being in sales for as long as I have been, which isn't that long, it's only three years but I've recognized the people that do well versus the people who struggle or fall behind. The difference really comes down to one knowledge, but two confidence and being able to have conviction with the things that you say. And I'm curious if there's anything that you teach your students to be more confident when they are doing presentations or anything like that.

BJ Allen:

Yeah, so I think that's a really interesting observation, brett, because when you're confident as a salesperson, it just kind of bleeds into everything that you're doing and the consumer or the customer assumes you know what you're talking about if you say it with confidence.

BJ Allen:

And you know there's a few things, but one of the things that I think is really underappreciated when it comes to confidence, because often we think about confidence as being like a characteristic or a trait. Right, he's very he or she, they're just very confident when they talk. But I don't think that that's the case, at least not fully. I don't think that that's the case, at least not fully. I don't think that's the full story. I think that confidence is bred by preparation. The people, like you, go into a sales call. You're the most confident when you really know your product and when you really know the customer, when you really feel like I know what they're looking for and I know how I'm going to sell this. And you know there's one of my favorite shows is um is a free solo, you know by the story of Alex Honnold and one of the things he says is really interesting in that show. He says you know, people always think that me free solo is about like compressing my fear and he says to me it's more about expanding my comfort zone. Interesting, he says you know like I, I practice and I do the route that I'm going to free solo, I practice and I do that route with ropes hundreds of times. Like I know exactly what move I'm going to do, I know exactly which finger I'm going to do, I know exactly which finger I'm going to use. Like I become so comfortable with the process that that's what disbates my fear. And so I think similar with with cells like this is why I do role plays.

BJ Allen:

In my class we do a lot of role plays and at the beginning of the semester it's super uncomfortable.

BJ Allen:

The students are super awkward, they're like I don't know if I want to do this, and I said, like you just have to, because this is how you become confident in the process is by learning hey, I can do this. And then by the end of the semester they're a lot more confident because that's an environment that they've practiced in. And then they go get, and then they go into a sales competition and then they're super uncomfortable because it's a new environment. And then they do it and then they become comfortable with it. So I love that analogy from Alex Honnold. I think it's about expanding your comfort zone. Another thing that we teach in our class in regards to confidence is this comes from the Pacific Institute, which is like a consulting group and it's called the flick back, flick up technique, which is anytime you're given a situation where you feel really scared or uncomfortable. Really, rather than just try and talk yourself out of being nervous, like, hey, this isn't a big deal, you're going to be fine.

BJ Allen:

I mean that never works right Is, rather than try and talk yourself out of it, try and talk yourself into a situation or to feeling about, or reminding, remembering about a situation where you did succeed. So it would be like, hey, so maybe, brett, maybe you're going to give a presentation and you be like, hey, so maybe Brett, maybe you're going to give a presentation, and you're like man, I'm really nervous. And then you just remember, like your very first podcast episode, you're like I was super nervous but like look, everything's turned out just fine. And so remembering a time where you were nervous and you were new and you did succeed, gives us a lot of confidence. So it's called the flick back of thought, because you flick back to a time you're successful and then you flick those emotions back into your present situation. You remember those, you cultivate that, that feeling of confidence, and then it helps you portray that into, like, your current circumstance. I like that?

Brett:

Yeah, david Goggins, do you know who he is? By chance? He's a. He's a crazy guy. You don't. You don't really need to know too much about him, but he he runs like 250 miles. He was a Navy seal, like he's a crazy guy. But he calls that concept the cookie jar. So anytime that you you know are going through something difficult or you need that extra confidence boost, like go into your cookie jar and pull something out that reminds you that you know you can do difficult things and and try and keep going. But I think that's cool. What's it? Click up. What was it?

BJ Allen:

Flick out, click up flick, flick back, flick up flick back, flick up.

Brett:

Okay, yeah, I was way off, but sorry, there's also a software I'm trying to explore called a click up, so I was getting a little confused, but I like that. I mean, reflection is huge, I think, with progress in any area in your life, but confidence, especially because our brains are very good at finding negative things that we do, or finding the bad in every situation, and it's almost like you have to practice shifting your focus and, um, like you said, remembering you know what's gotten you to that part. But um, that's great. Thanks for uh, for sharing that. But, um, I I kind of want to pivot the conversation a little bit and and talk about, uh, the book that you wrote um, the compensating power of Christ.

Brett:

I, uh, I checked it out. To be honest, I haven't purchased it, but I've, I've read um the compensating power of Christ. I, uh, I checked it out. To be honest, I haven't purchased it, but I've, I've read um, like the summary. I've read a lot of your your reviews on Amazon, actually, and it has great reviews, um, but that's a very different book to write than some of your. You know business books that you've also done um, which I believe are textbooks, business books that you've also done, which I believe are textbooks, correct? Yeah, so that's very different, and I'm also a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and so it's something that one I think is amazing that you did. That it's not only something that is different from your profession, but it's also I think we'll probably get into this but a lot of research had to go into writing that book about, about Christ and his atonement, um, but I'm curious what, what got you to decide to to go down that path and write that book?

BJ Allen:

Yeah. So the whole thing was really way outside my comfort zone, right, talking about, uh, talking about trying to be confident in situations. So I I've always kind of thought about this concept. I didn't really call it the compensating power at first, but it's just this idea that Jesus Christ writes the wrongs of life. So as Christians, we talk about the atonement in a number of different ways. So we talk about how Jesus Christ forgives us our sins, how Jesus Christ gives us strength to overcome challenges, how he gives us peace in difficult times. But there's this aspect of the atonement that I kind of just read about in bits and pieces here you know, church leaders here, scriptures there which is about how Jesus Christ compensates for the unfairness and weaknesses of life. And, uh, I just realized like I don't really know what that means and I don't. There's not really a lot on it. I've heard people say it, but I've never really heard people talk about it below, like a surface level answer, yeah, and so it kind of just became a personal study.

BJ Allen:

You know, as an academic, that's just kind of what I do is I study something deeply and then I write about it because I'm, you know, I'm just weird, and so I never really I never really put it thought it would be a book. I just kind of started writing about the things I was learning and then, and just kind of, you kind of just talk to people about, hey, I've been learning about this and like, hey, that's a really cool way of looking at the atonement of Jesus Christ. I never really thought about it like that and then I just started really feeling that I should kind of put it into a book form, right. So in you know, in religious terms, we'd say, like you know, I got a prompting from the spirit that God wanted me to do something and at first I kind of just was like, no, I don't want to. You know, probably similar to how you felt about starting a podcast. You're like everyone wants to start a podcast, like I don't want to do this, right, it's like everyone thinks they're going to write a book. I'm not going to write a book. I always made fun of those people who say that and and then I was like, ok, fine, like it just became like a strong enough feeling that I'm like, ok, I'll do it.

BJ Allen:

And you know, it's really hard to get a book published. You know it's even harder in a very niche area. You know, in the writings within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints there's really kind of only you know, a couple big publishers and they're both owned by the same company. And I'm not a religion professor, I'm not a famous institute teacher, I'm not a general authority Like, and so I said like, I'll write it, I'll send it in. They'll say no, and then I'll, I'll just assume God wanted me to do this for my own good.

BJ Allen:

And you know, just the opposite happened. I sent it in and they said, hey, we think this is a really kind of novel way of thinking about the atonement of Jesus Christ. So you know, here's a bunch of changes to make, here's some things we want to improve. Send the manuscript back in and we'll strongly consider it. So I did, and then it ended up getting published and it was just a really phenomenal journey. Um, the the, you know the book's been a lot more successful than I thought it would be as a first time author. That no one knows. You know, instead of five people buying it, at least 15 have. So I, I just it's, uh, it's, it's been a really cool journey. But yeah, that's kind of the background of the book and how a business professor wrote a gospel book. I like that.

Brett:

I mean it's it shows that you're living that principle of like, hey, I'm going to expand my comfort zone here, um, cause, I can imagine that feels like I'm. Uh, at least with the podcast like you brought up that example I felt a lot of imposter syndrome coming in and and telling people like, okay, well, getting after it to me is a time or like an area where people can come and learn skills and and hear other people's experiences, uh, take insights from them and apply it to their own lives to see if they can help themselves, progress and really be the best version of themselves. And there's so many self-help things out there, there's so many motivational things that I'm like I'll just be another drop in the bucket. And I felt a lot of imposter syndrome at the beginning until I kind of had a similar experience, like people grasped onto the message and like encouraged me to keep going. Um, but did you ever feel that imposter syndrome at the beginning? And, uh, if you did, how did you overcome it?

BJ Allen:

Yes, a hundred percent. I felt the imposter syndrome. Um, you know, I don't know if you get over it, except for you just keep moving forward. Like you know, I don't know if you get over it, except for you just keep moving forward. Like you know, there's never a point where you're like, oh, I don't feel imposter syndrome now. So I feel very confident about what I'm doing because, you know, it certainly helped that I sent it to a large publisher and they gave me validation by saying, hey, yeah, we want to publish it.

BJ Allen:

Um, but then, like that just led to a whole different world. So my book comes out and people start buying it and people start reviewing it, and then I start getting contacted about being on like podcasts, right. So, um, I've been on a few pretty popular podcasts in regards to the church Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and at first, like that was tense posture syndrome. Um, you know, about a month or two after the book launched, I was asked to be on the follow him podcast which is like one of the biggest it's like one of the biggest religious podcasts in the whole world, not just for our religion.

BJ Allen:

It has like a million listeners a week and oh wow, I didn't know that they asked me to be on and I was like at first, honestly, like I'm super embarrassed to say this, brett. But like I said no, I was like no, like this is way outside my comfort zone. Like they have like top religion scholars on this podcast. That's what makes it so cool is it's like a mix of scholar and spirituality. Then they asked me again and then they asked me again and I said like okay, like I have to do this because I'm always telling my students to go outside their comfort zone. Like what a hypocrite I am. And I was.

BJ Allen:

So I haven't been that nervous in ages to be on that podcast. Because it was just for those who aren't familiar, it's basically a scriptural podcast. So for like four hours we record on like a few chapters in the book of scripture. So for me it was the book of mormon and it's not just like hey, we're having a conversation, like we are now, like you're, you're diving into it, right, you're talking about the meanings behind it, and so you got to be well prepared. This is a. It was just a whole different dynamic and that's just one example. I've been on a few others. But yeah, like, if I mean, you have imposter syndrome. Before you do everything, anything that you're comfortable with, and you just eventually become more comfortable by just expanding your comfort zone, you just do it and then you tell yourself hey, like you know, it wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible, like.

Brett:

Hey, that's a win, that's a win.

BJ Allen:

You know, people aren't throwing tomatoes at me and I'm not getting angry emails about how bad it was so and so that's a win for me. And so, like sure I'll, I'll do some more and I'll keep extending my comfort zone. So that's one of the things I didn't really, I didn't really forecast with writing this book. I thought I'll write the book and it'll just be over. I didn't really see that it would open a whole nother world to me and for the most part it's actually been really fun. It's been really fun to do something different, you know, with the podcast and the and the come follow me stuff, and I also I teach at BYU education week now about the concept of compensation and uh, it's been a really a cool. It's been a cool divergent from, like, the day to day of a business professor.

Brett:

Yeah, I can imagine that that being the case, and I think it's awesome. Like it, it's um, it it's um something I think some people might be afraid to talk about. You know, bringing religion into um, the fact that they are I mean, obviously byu is a little bit different like it is a religious school, um, but I can see how, you know, that might make people think oh well, you know he's also interested in in business, he teaches marketing. But you know he also has this book about Jesus Christ and his atonement and it's not really like BJ's forte, it's not his normal thing. I mean, I can't imagine people giving backlash or anything like that. But I think it's just, it's inspiring that you know you're you're deciding to chase a different avenue, I guess, of what you're comfortable with. But with the book specifically, it's broken into three different parts, correct? So it's it's the self, others and the like, the trials of life, correct?

BJ Allen:

Yeah. So it just kind of breaks down the idea of compensation into kind of three areas like what's being compensated for and who's doing the compensation. So the first section is how Jesus Christ compensates us for our own imperfections and weaknesses. Then the second section is how Christ compensates others for our imperfections, so like people we have stewardship over, you know our children or religious responsibilities and then the last section is how Christ compensates us for the imperfections and really the trials of life.

Brett:

That's awesome. I think that really is a great way to look at the atonement of Jesus Christ. I, I grew up, you know, learning that really the atonement of Jesus Christ was done so we could live with Heavenly Father again, for Him atoning for all of our sins, because we're all imperfect people, and that concept was very easily digestible, like it was like okay, well, that's what it is. And then my dad he's been a publisher for 27 years, so he's also kind of scholarly. He reads religious books. I'm trying to think of who the guy is. It's not BJ Miller, I can't remember, but some BYU scholars and professors have written books and he loves them books and he loves them. And it wasn't until I spoke to him about the atonement of Jesus Christ where I started to understand that it's not just for our own, like sins or anything that we do that's not in line with his teachings, but it's really for anything that is difficult that we go through. And really he feels all the pain of grief. He feels the pain of depression, of abandonment, everything. Because of that I've gained a testimony that you know. He does know the feelings that we're experiencing as we're going through certain situations.

Brett:

To kind of give you a quick backstory, back in 2021, I was really sick and I learned that I had a tumor in my pituitary gland, but for two years we didn't know what was going on, and so I was dropping weight and I'm six three, got down to 135 pounds, uh, so it wasn't great and I had no energy, very, very bad fatigue, get migraines all the time, and it turns out like my testosterone was down to 53, which I think, like average for my age, was supposed to be 500 to 700. And so it was really kind of a bad time. But because of that, like I'd had some very personal conversations with God, just laying on my bed because there's nothing else I could really do, and I tried understanding why I would have to go through something like this, and I was trying to make excuses a lot of the times, or not excuses, but almost play the victim card, like why is this happening to me? What's going on here to me? What, what's going on here? And I just remember one day I was laying there and I just had this like overwhelming thought that you will become better for this and you will help someone because of it, and at that moment I just remember being like, okay, well, I know that I'm going to be refined through this and I just remember it's kind of goofy, but I would like just listen to general conference talks, because at the time, like I couldn't look at screens or anything, so I would just listen to talks.

Brett:

And I remember hearing President Uchtdorf talk about hope and having hope in Christ.

Brett:

And I would always wonder like, okay, well, not only is it, you know, hope in Christ for us to be forgiven of our sins, but I think it's in my own opinion and you can correct me if I'm wrong, because I know you studied this a little bit, quite a bit because you wrote a book but I remember thinking, well, if I can have hope in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of my sins, I can have hope knowing that I can get refined through this process and become better.

Brett:

Like I just had to hold on to that hope and it kind of helped me see Jesus Christ in a different light, because he wants what's best for us and I think sometimes that means we have to go through some difficult times on our own and rely on him during the process. Um, so I mean that's it's something I think I wish we talked more about is how Christ can understand your feelings and your emotions and, um, he knows what it's like, like he's felt it all. Um, it's definitely something that I want to teach my own kids and help them understand. But what did you learn? Sorry, go ahead.

BJ Allen:

No, I was going to say first of all, thank you for sharing that experience. What a beautiful example of how Jesus Christ is with us in the difficulties of life. And I think the totality of the atonement of Jesus Christ is one of the most beautiful aspects of the gospel of Jesus Christ that, regardless of what's happening in our life, jesus Christ is with us. And like that's what the atonement of Jesus Christ is for. And when you know, I think traditionally, maybe when we would hear your experience or something like that, we would think that God is either we think, well, that doesn't make sense for God that's supposed to be perfectly merciful and perfectly just. Like what's the? You know what's the? Where's the justice and the mercy, and someone going through a difficult time like that. So therefore, god or Jesus Christ aren't real.

BJ Allen:

Or sometimes, as traditional Christians maybe we take the aspect and say, well, like God will take care of it in the next life. Right, like Brett will be rewarded with with a crown of glory because of the things he went through, which I think is true. But really a large portion of what my book is about is about how Jesus Christ compensates in this life for those things. Yes, he'll deal with things in the next life, but he also deals with things in this life, and the idea that all this unfair about life can be right through Christ's atonement is not just about after we die, it's about the things we experience here. So I think what you just described is a beautiful example of that.

BJ Allen:

Part of the part of the way christ compensates us is by making us better because of our experiences. So, like no one, no one we like, we don't have to pretend that trials are fun and that we want to go through them, right. But you know, if like here's an example I use sometimes like you have a microphone in front of you, if I was to come to your house and steal that microphone, like you would you would be angry and you would say, hey, like that wasn't fair. But then if I came back and I gave you the microphone and I gave you a million dollars, you would say like, yeah, like I've been more than compensated.

BJ Allen:

Yeah, similarly, I think when we look back on life, we're going to see that like life was unfair, but it was unfair in an advantageous way. Like we got way more than what was taken from us. And sometimes in our finite mind, all we can see is the moment. All we can see is the pain that's happening right now. But if we are willing to take a step back and we think about the eternal perspective that God has, not just in the next life but also in this life, I think we see that our life is way better because of the challenges that we go through. Like I would never would have written this book if it hadn't been for some of like the mental health challenges that I had had and the way that I had come to understand grace and Jesus Christ. Now I don't want I don't want to go through those again, but like I've been more than compensated for the things that have occurred in my life, and I think that's kind of part of what the gospel of Jesus Christ is about is I've been more than compensated for the things that have occurred in my life, and I think that's kind of part of what the gospel of Jesus Christ is about. And as we look to the Savior, he'll help us see and understand those.

BJ Allen:

And I bet if you look at some of the other parts of your life during that difficult time, I think you'll see, probably, that there was, there was other blessings that came into your life that you really didn't deserve, right. That kind of that, that that made um part of the part of that more more palpable, right. Maybe that's like the relationship with your spouse that was strengthened, maybe that was that. Maybe that was like professional opportunities that came that wouldn't have been otherwise, or, you know, doctor miracles or something. And I just I think that that's such a beautiful part of the atonement of Jesus Christ is that we often talk about, like the gaps that Christ fills. Christ filled, you know, the gap of sin and the gap of death, so we'll be resurrected. There's a lot of gaps that come with living in a fallen world and Jesus Christ fills all those gaps. That's what he came to do.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that perspective and you're very spot on. It's never fun to go through a trial in the time, like. It's hard to not be um, have tunnel vision on the problem, like. Like I said earlier, it's it's easy for your brain to find the bed, um, but I think it's it's important in those moments to call upon on God and, specifically through the name of Christ um, to ask for help. And I've had too many experiences in my life where I haven't felt that.

Brett:

And you are spot on also with, like, as I look back on my life, from where I am now to when I was sick, going through some pretty severe trials, there's so many blessings that came from it and, like you said, I wouldn't want to go through it again.

Brett:

It was not easy, but I wouldn't be who I am today without that. And it's kind of an interesting realization I've had recently is, you know, that refined me, it taught me to be resilient, it taught me to have hope, and those are lessons I think that are invaluable, at least to me. They are, and it's funny, my wife and I joke all the time because, you know, I was going through that hard time and during that same time her dad passed away and so we always joke and it might seem like a dark joke, but like we had to go through those things to end up being together, because that's who made us who we are and it's um, I love that idea of just the compensating power of Christ because I have seen that many times in my life. I'm curious if there's anything that you learned that you didn't really know about Christ's atonement before writing the book.

BJ Allen:

Yeah, I'd say that everything in the book was something I hadn't. I mean, it was just a learning process, right, I only put stuff in the book that I thought wasn't really super salient or really heavily taught in Christianity, like you know. Going back to what we were talking about before, about kind of feeling imposter syndrome, I mean, you feel imposter syndrome writing a gospel book as a business professor, but you especially feel writing a book on the topic like the atonement of Jesus Christ, right, it's like who am I to write about a topic so sacred and so special, right, like I'm certainly not the most knowledgeable person on it, nor do I, you know, claim to be, and so it was really just a process of of studying scripture and studying talks from church leaders, studying books, reading a lot. So I kind of see it as like an amalgamation of a lot of things that have been taught but really maybe put into like a cohesive way that's digestible for kind of just the average person, right? So, like I didn't come up with the topic, I didn't come up with the atonement is just maybe putting it together. And so we talked about one aspect of the, of the compensating power, which is how christ compensates for the unfairness of life. But, um, you know to answer your question about, like, what else have I learned? I think you kind of understand like the depth of grace and the way that it enables and helps us. You know, particularly like in my own life, it's become very meaningful because I've learned that Christ compensates for my weaknesses as I try and help other people.

BJ Allen:

So I'm a, you know, I'm a college professor. I work with a lot of people, a lot of students, who ask for help and advice. I have six kids. I also serve as the bishop of my congregation, which is like similar to like a pastor, right? Or like a priest, and so people are always coming in with they need help. And here's the point is that it's very easy, when you have a stewardship over people, to second guess yourself all the time. And when someone walks outside your office and say, hey, like maybe I should have done this or maybe I should have said this, or you know people, um, things don't work out the way that you want them to you, you start to think maybe it was me, you know, I have a kid who goes off the rails. Maybe you start to wonder is that my fault? What I do what was? Where was my parenting fell? Or you know those of those who have served like church missions. You know you. This is a.

BJ Allen:

This is something you always deal with the missionary is you know, if I'm not, if I'm not helping people come to the savior, people aren't accepting Jesus Christ. Is this my fault? Like what could I have said differently? Wish I said differently.

BJ Allen:

So part of part of the, an aspect of the compensating power of Christ that we haven't really talked about is how Christ makes up for our stewardships, which is like when we put in our best effort, christ makes our efforts sufficient. So he blesses our children beyond what we can. As we give our best effort. He co-parents with us. He carries our message to our children's hearts greater than we could with us. He carries our message to our children's hearts greater than we could.

BJ Allen:

Same thing with, like you know, our stewardship's in a church, responsibility is we're never going to measure up to what people need. We're never going to measure up to who Jesus needs us to be. And if we look for self-validation in the things that we do, we'll never find it because we're imperfect. But if we rely on the Savior Jesus Christ in all the aspects of our life, including our stewardships over other people, we can find peace in knowing that they're his children, that he's the one that loves them way more than we do and as we give our best effort, he will make our efforts enough and he will help people and bless people like beyond anything that we could do.

Brett:

That's a. That's a beautiful way to look at it, like co-parenting with Christ. I think that's um, it's definitely something that I've I've seen in in my life. Like thinking back at the times when I was growing up and my parents would teach me lessons Um, I always remember like the good ones stuck and I feel like there were really moments of clarity that I had just on my own when I would think about them.

Brett:

Obviously I wasn't like getting super deep into like my own thoughts. My mom said this at dinner. Maybe I should think about that more, but I just remember like some things would stick way better than others and I remember the thing that always hung above our door and the thing my mom would always say is remember who you are. I always just remember thinking as a kid oh yeah, I'm a Rossel and I'm a child of God. That's always what my identity was. My parents never taught me that last piece, but it was always just something that I kind of pulled together, I believe, because there had to be someone directing that, and I believe that person to be Christ, at least helping me understand it.

Brett:

But I feel like that is something that a lot of people might have a lot of peace with understanding is that Christ does help with our stewardship with others. Um, you know, I I've met many parents who have struggling children, like you said, and they placed the blame on themselves and it's it's sad to see, like it's a it's a heavy weight to carry around and obviously I'm sure you know there are some things that they could have done differently, but maybe at the end of the day, there wasn't, and everyone has their own agency, otherwise it would not be God's plan, and so that's also something to remember. Like anytime that there's you give advice, or like you wish you would have said something different. It's like, yes, you, there may have been something there, but people have their own agency and that's something that they control.

BJ Allen:

And not just, not just there may have been something there, but people have their own agency and that's something that they control. Um, and and not just, not just there may have been. Like there was right. Yeah, like think about you know, parents who children's go off the bell like is there, are there things you shouldn't? The answer is yes, yeah, because you're imperfect. But the ant, but, but like the antidote, there is Jesus Christ. It is that he. He never expected you to be perfect and as you do your best, he's going to make up for the difference.

BJ Allen:

And you know a Bible story that most people will be familiar with that, I think, really illustrates this. Is like the feeding of the 5,000. When Christ comes to his apostles and says hey, you know, we need to feed these people, and they're like this isn't going to happen. We all feel that way when we're given a responsibility. I can't do this, I can't serve in this calling and I can't do this responsibility because I'm not good enough. And all Jesus does, all he says, is hey, give me your five loaves and your two fishes, I'll be the one who feeds these people. I just need you to give me everything you have and, in the end, like Jesus Christ, is the one who does.

BJ Allen:

Let me give you maybe another example that I think is really relevant to your generation is Like a lot of people your age, they're just terrified of having kids. Because, like a lot of people your age, they're just terrified of having kids because not just the responsibility that comes with it you know the money and the time and the lifestyle change but also like they're scared that they're going to screw it up. Like I can't be responsible for another human, like I'm barely I'm barely treading water myself.

Brett:

Yeah, it's definitely scary. I mean, like, I have talked to many of my friends and that is something that they talk about, and then, um, it is interesting, though, seeing the difference between people who just worry about it, and then there's people who have faith and and walk into it. Um, but it is something that I know my generation struggles with is, uh, the idea of having kids. It's like the freedom's gone, less money, like all those things that you mentioned, and the world's crazy. So, anyway, sorry to interrupt you.

BJ Allen:

No, no, I love that. Yeah, thanks for that validation. So I think that you know, I like, I talked to, I talked to, you know, young people or young moms and they're like I don't, I, I'm, I'm afraid of messing up, I, I didn't grow up as a christian. Or I didn't go up, grow up going to church, and now I, now I'm going to church, I want to raise my kids in church, but I don't know how to do this. I don't even know the scriptures. How am I supposed to teach them myself? How am I supposed to? How am I supposed to have a family home evening? I don't know how to do. I don't know what that looks like.

BJ Allen:

And, uh, excuse me, a scripture I love to quote about this is in in the book of mormon, in second nephi 3, where, uh, the prophets lamenting kind of similar, like like I'm just not very good at writing, and the Lord says he says the weakness of their words, while I make strong in their faith, like, yes, I know you're weak and I know your words are weak. I'm not saying that you're great, but this is going to be a success because I make weaknesses into strengths, not me.

Brett:

Jesus, I love that I make weaknesses into strengths Not me, jesus, I love that Right, as Jesus says, I make weaknesses into strength.

BJ Allen:

The weakness of your words will I make strong in their faith. So if you think raising your kids in the gospel relies on you, you certainly are going to fail because you're weak and you're human. You're going to make mistakes. But if we go into it saying, hey, like Jesus is going to make up for what I lack as I give my best effort, like that's a much more hopeful attitude and a much more truthful attitude if you make Christ the center of your life.

Brett:

Yeah, that's beautiful and I agree with that. Like we are all imperfect people, like you said earlier, we live in a fallen world and we need that power from Jesus Christ to be able to make everything right. So I think the idea of the compensating power of Christ is a beautiful one, and I apologize for not having read your book already. I was going to, but I need to study it. I think it was there's things in there that I'll forgive you.

Brett:

Yeah, thank you. Thank you, I appreciate that, um, but, yeah, our generation, I mean, I think there's a lot that we could benefit from understanding that and really everyone, like how Jesus Christ can help you in all areas of your life, not just with sin, not just with death, but really everything. And I love what you said earlier about how life sometimes is unfair, like not everyone has dealt a fair hand of cards, but through Jesus Christ it can be made whole Christ. That can be made whole um, either in this life or the next, but he helps us during this time to to refine our strengths, to push through Um, and the thing that I just I always go back to, anytime I'm going through something difficult, is that God never leaves my side and, like Jesus Christ, knows exactly the pain I'm feeling in the moment it's happening, and so I think it's a very beautiful concept that I probably don't know enough about but need to just refine my own knowledge on it, but it's something I'm glad that you've written about because it's you know it's needed.

BJ Allen:

It really is. Yeah, well, thank you.

Brett:

Yeah and um, last last thing I want to ask you, and then I'll, I'll, uh, let you go back to your, your family and everything but, um, what's been the thing that's resonated to you, with you, the most? Um, through the whole process of writing your book?

BJ Allen:

Wow, that's a that's kind of like a heavy question. It is a big one. I mean maybe not a heavy question, but like there's just so many things, so many different ways I could answer that I would. I would maybe say this is that you know, if you're a Christian, you probably have have heard about Jesus Christ and learned about him and at some point, probably thought like why is this important?

BJ Allen:

You know is, or maybe the question would be, why is this important in my day to day life? I know that I need Jesus to be forgiven of sin, but you know, like you know, I make mistakes every day, but I'm not like a big sinner, like I'm a pretty good person. So, like I guess you know, if I do something really bad then I'll really rely on him. But tomorrow I'm going to do the dishes, I'm going to take my kids to soccer, I'm going to go to work. Like Jesus doesn't really seem that relevant sometimes. Like Jesus doesn't really seem that relevant sometimes and I say that you know facetiously, and I mean it in not trying to be disrespectful, but I'm just trying to be honest that a lot of us think that way, maybe not cognitive or maybe not consciously, but subconsciously, or even if you're not religious right, maybe you've wondered like why is God relevant to me, or why do I need him?

BJ Allen:

And, to be totally honest, like that's kind of like how I felt, like probably, you know, a good portion of of my teenage life and even maybe sometimes as a young adult, and the process of writing this book and studying the atonement from this perspective has just helped me realize that Jesus Christ is a lot more relevant and a part of my day-to-day life than I previously thought. So when I'm having a discussion with my kid, if I'm inviting Jesus into my life, jesus is there with me. As I'm doing something at work, Jesus is there with me. Jesus knows that I'm weak and he knows that I live in a fallen world, because he sent me here to learn and to have difficulties and to have trials, but he didn't send me here to be alone, and so I would say, for me that's been really maybe the biggest thing in writing this book is that Jesus Christ has really become my friend, versus kind of like a distant, abstract figure is he's become something that's that's intimately involved in my life.

Brett:

I love that. That was a beautiful answer and I know it was a heavy question, but, um, the only thing I would add onto that is he wants to be part of our lives.

BJ Allen:

Yes, I love that.

Brett:

We have to invite him in, and I always think of that picture of him knocking on the door. You know there's no handle and we have to be the ones that let him. Let him in, um, but it really is beautiful and um, I give you my word that I'll. I'll finish the book because I want to learn more about this. So, um, but for anyone else where?

BJ Allen:

where could they find it and where could they find some of your other work? Yeah, so I mean you can go to my website, bjallennet, if you want to kind of just browse um to see more of what the book's about, and also you can see some of the other podcasts I've been on. If you really if you want to get the book, uh, you can go to. You can go to Amazon, you can buy the hardcover or you can buy the Kindle version, or you can go to Deseret Book if you live here in Utah or the Intermountain West, or you can go to Segal Book and I think it's like 20% off there. So if you live near Segal, that would be the go-to place.

Brett:

There we go. I appreciate it, bj. Seriously, it was great chatting with you. I learned a lot and I expect to learn more as I read your book. But thanks for being open about everything that you're teaching at BYU but then also just with Jesus Christ. That's a message I think everyone could use a little bit more, and hopefully other people who are not members and want to learn more, like always, feel free to reach out to me, happy to chat about it, but really appreciate your time and everything that you're doing, at least for BYU and teaching the next generation, because I've actually worked with some of your students and they're fantastic, so you're doing great work.

BJ Allen:

Hey, well, thank you, and thank you so much for having me on.

Brett:

I've really enjoyed our discussion, yeah likewise and appreciate everyone for listening and, as always, keep getting after it.