Getting After It

137 - Dr. Kim Buck, PhD - No Man Should Suffer in Silence

• Brett Rossell • Season 4 • Episode 137

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Men rarely talk about what’s going on under the surface. Maybe it’s because society told us to “man up.” Maybe it’s because we never had the tools to put words to how we feel. Either way, most of us have learned to hide our struggles until they become impossible to ignore.

In this episode, I sit down with a Dr. Kim Buck, seasoned mental health professional who has spent 25 years helping others face these unspoken battles — anxiety, depression, isolation, and burnout — and she shares why connection is often the antidote. We explore how to recognize when you’re pushing too hard, the dangers of going it alone, and practical ways to rebuild emotional balance, one honest conversation at a time.

If you’ve ever wondered why it feels so hard to speak up — or you want to help someone who’s quietly going through it — this conversation is a powerful reminder that asking for help is one of the bravest moves you can make.

Key Takeaways

  • Why most men struggle to identify and express their emotions
  • The surprising signals your body gives when your mental health is off
  • How isolation quietly fuels depression, anxiety, and addiction
  • Why “toughing it out” usually backfires — and what to do instead
  • Practical strategies for creating balance, connection, and resilience

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Learn more on her site. 

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I hope today’s episode sparked something within you to pursue your dreams and unlock your true potential. If you found value in it, consider sharing it with someone who might need that same push.

Getting After It is for those who. want to silence their self-doubt. Refuse to be owned by comfort. Understand their limits are man-made and breakable. We live in a time of constant comparison. Social media drowns us in highlight reels and overnight success stories. But what most people don’t see is the grit behind it all. The reps. The quiet mornings. The sacrifices. The failures.

You are just getting started. 

Keep Getting After It. 

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Speaker 1:

Well, perfect, Kim. Thank you so much for jumping onto the podcast. I'm really excited to chat about what we're going into today.

Speaker 2:

Awesome, glad to be here. Thanks for the invite.

Speaker 1:

I have to ask is this your first podcast?

Speaker 2:

No, really.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

So, you've been on one before. I did a live webinar, a live Q&A, for a few years. It's a little bit nerve-wracking, but I've done that. I've done probably not many, I've done maybe a handful, four or five Awesome.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, if you don't mind, just letting everyone know your background and maybe it'll open up why we're talking today, and then I'll hit you with my first question.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely Well, I am a mental health provider, so I have been practicing and working with clients in the mental health field, mostly adults, for about 25 years and I love it. I love what I do. I have some pretty high specialties. Um, over the years you kind of develop that.

Speaker 2:

Uh, hopefully, you kind of develop your your lane, that you're best at. So I work only with adults. I work a lot with sexual dysfunctions and couples and anything from addictions and compulsions to betrayal and that kind of thing. But I also do general mental health for men and women depression, anxiety, life transition, that kind of thing. So passionate about it, love it, happy to answer any questions or have an interesting discussion, maybe today.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, again, I really appreciate you jumping on and it's definitely something that I've gotten more passionate about and interested in myself because I've gone through my own mental health journey, I would call it where you know, I've been down in the dumps quite a bit and I think, a lot of it. I'm not sure if you know this about me, but I I was sick, uh, starting in 2021 around there, um which you know. We didn't really know what was going on with me. Eventually we found out I have a, a tumor, tumor in my pituitary gland. Um, that's kind of damaged the hormone production in there. Um, so my hormones were off balance for quite some time and during that time it was really difficult to one focus, to manage my mood, because at the time, my testosterone was really really low. I think when, when I was first diagnosed and they first did my blood work, it was at 53. Which is, yeah, I think it's toddlers having more testosterone than that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

But yeah.

Speaker 1:

So I mean, it was definitely a journey and things happened where I was depressed and I felt like I was broken and didn't really know how to talk about it with anyone.

Speaker 1:

And it was a weird time because I felt like I was stuck but also, uh, a little bit intimidated by asking for help because I um, you know, I follow all these Navy seals and I I read all these books that people in the military right and I love that kind of stuff, and you know they're always like. You know, you just got to push through, you got to dig deep and fight those feelings. But every time I would try and do that it would never really work. And yeah, I think the first time I asked for help I felt kind of shamed to do it in a sense, because I looked at myself as this tough guy who could handle anything. But at the end of the day that was not the case and I just at the time didn't have the tools that I now know to help me with some of those things. But long way to ask my first question.

Speaker 2:

No, I appreciate you sharing that yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, I think it might just give some context. Yeah, but why do you think men often struggle to talk openly about their emotions and even their mental health?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think that men are not typically trained to do that from birth.

Speaker 2:

I don't think most times when and I'm generalizing stereotyping, of course, but in general I think men are not given emotional language, they just aren't. I think they're not given ways to say how they feel, or they're really just taught to deal with it and or to ignore it. And there are times and occasions when you do have to do that. We all have to Right. We're not going to, you know, sit in our feelings all day, every day. It just isn't possible. We have to do that, we all have to right. We're not going to, you know, sit in our feelings all day, every day. It just isn't possible. We have to function. So there's a balance we have to strike there.

Speaker 2:

But I do think the pendulum swings pretty hard to the side of not having language and not feeling able to say what's going on, and sometimes not even knowing what is going on, just knowing that I don't feel right. And no matter what I do, I can't make it better. No matter what I read, no matter how much I run or go to the gym or hang out with buddies, anything, no matter what I do, I come back to the same feeling. Um, and you know, mental and emotional health are very complex issues, just like the body, Um, like you have something are very complex issues, just like the body, Like you have something, and they're intricately intertwined. So you had emotions going on a few years back that were pretty intense, but there was also some physiology that was exacerbating. You know the emotions.

Speaker 2:

But I think men try and push through, as do women. Um, I think men try and push through, um, as do women. So I don't want to say that it's just men, but I think, I think men have more of a propensity to push through and, just like you know, buck up, just pull themselves up by the bootstraps. Just, you know, a lot of times it's social that way you go to a dad or an uncle or, and they're like dude, I don't know, just deal with it, you know they don't have any answers, because that's the answer they were given.

Speaker 2:

So that's, I mean, that's a big general overview, but I think, I just think it's socially. It's socially unacceptable on a large scale, because men perceive themselves as weak, maybe if they have feelings that they can't control or they don't know how to feel better. Um, you know, which would make sense why they would maybe avoid reaching out for help. They wouldn't, they wouldn't hesitate if they had a, you know, sore muscle or go to the chiropractor. They but like if they have a feeling they can't overcome. So I'm not going to shrink, I'm not going to do that. That's for whatever. You know that put me in that category. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I do think we're improving. Each generation is improving, because my generation always call us the Oprah generation. That's when Oprah started talking about feelings on TV and so we were all like, oh, we have feelings. We're not necessarily good at them, but I think, uh, the millennial generation and the zoomers and some of the generations coming behind us are much more, much more apt to ask for help and to recognize those things, and the shame I feel like is starting to reduce around mental health a little. So that's, that's positive.

Speaker 1:

I hope so. Yeah, I mean, it is June and that's one of the reasons I wanted to reach out is I was like I was talking to Allie and I was like this is the first time I remember it being men's mental health month, so I'm hoping that you know that that stigma is going away.

Speaker 2:

But you were talking a little bit about emotional language and I'm curious if you can give an example of that um, when I talk about emotional language, it's just being able to speak, emotion, being able to speak, feeling like I feel sad, I feel mad, I feel lonely, I feel I feel shame, I feel um, discouraged, whatever, I feel overwhelmed, those, those are all. For some men, those are very synonymous with weak.

Speaker 2:

Like somehow I should be able to to just magically figure those out at 21 and 22 and 17 and 43 and all the things Um and and a lot of times we do, you know, we do figure them out. Over time they, they dissipate. But there are, when it's when it's tied to other issues, like something physiological or, um, even something going on in our life, like some sort of loss or some sort of, you know, out of control losses that you know that we can't manage on our own, or maybe even something that's might be, you know, like, like clinical levels of depression or anxiety, or something we don't manage. That any more than I would manage my blood pressure if I was hypertensive, not the type of hypertensive because maybe I'm overweight, but the kind of hypertensive I'm born with. I don't just raise and lower my blood pressure at will, and so why we expect that people can sometimes do that with feelings, with emotions, I don't know why we've done that, but that's what we've done, and I guess that's why I have a job.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, I mean, it is something that's a need. Like I am. Yeah, my own experience taught me that. You know that's I, like you said, wasn't necessarily given the tools growing up, um, in school, and, um, like my parents did a great job at like helping me through emotions, but never, you know, no shame to them but like helping me understand, like, oh, when you're feeling sad. Here's what you should be doing, here's the thoughts you should be telling yourself.

Speaker 1:

Because my issue and I'm sure this is kind of similar in some men but is, I would have like a depressive thought and then I would say, man, why is this happening to me? Like, am I actually broken? And then it was like this vicious cycle where I would just continue to always just beat myself down. And that's one thing Allie and I actually she helped me a lot with when we first be like got married was my own mental voice, like the voice that I would have that would talk to me like in in any way, if, if, that makes sense. But like my internal dialogue was just pretty rough. I would always beat myself up and it wasn't good. And she's helped me rewire that and realize that those are just incorrect thoughts. They're not necessarily real.

Speaker 1:

Um and uh, do you know who Dr Amen is? Yes, so I actually was listening to a podcast from him today and he was saying that, um, when you feel like you are in that sense of like you're depressed, or you have these anxious thoughts or these other feelings, um, your brain thinks that your body's hurt or or something like that, and because of that, you're like your brain's trying to figure out okay, well, how can I get rid of this? How can I fix this problem? Um and yeah, I think it just becomes a vicious cycle where you can't get out of and you have to ask for help at some point can't get out of and you have to ask for help at some point, right, because that that cycle is just fueled by.

Speaker 2:

So if we weren't to go the shame route and just say my brain's trying to heal itself, it's trying to figure things out?

Speaker 2:

but, sometimes in that process, um, the messaging, the messaging's no bueno, the messaging's not useful, not helpful, um, because sometimes we try and motivate ourselves by the messages that maybe we've inadvertently received, even well-meaning there's a lot of well-meaning and well-intended messages out there about just deal with it, I bet so-and-so, we start comparing ourselves to others and that cycle, like you said, it takes on a life of its own. And now we don't know, am I body sick? Am I head sick? Am I heart sick? Am I spiritual sick? Like you know, it all kind of becomes this, um, it just, it kind of grows, kind of like snowballs, you know, down to going down, but I, I think you know what Allie's done for you.

Speaker 2:

you know what you guys are figuring out is amazing, cause to me the inner voice. So there's the being able to speak into emotion and know what emotion is, and then there's being able to recognize my own inner dialogue and what's true and what's false and false. Inner dialogue is powerful. I it's. It's powerful because we're in our head a lot. We're driving, we're looking, we're on social media.

Speaker 2:

we're alone, we're at work, and that dialogue matters because we follow, we tend to follow it. Now, if I've got a chemical imbalance of some sort or some other, maybe diagnose, diagnosable issue, that's where we come into play.

Speaker 2:

That's where we can say no, this is not in your control. And let me tell you why. And the more you try and fix it with all of the well-intended advice given by well-intended people, the more, the more crappy you'll feel, because you can't, because it seems to work for everyone else, why isn't it working for me? And now I've got something else to you know, put in my what's wrong with me bucket, um, which, if you're familiar with Dr Brene Brown, she's like famous in the world.

Speaker 2:

She's a researcher, um, and her stuff is so good I would highly recommend men or women, men, she's a woman, so it's kind of written, I think in her language, but it is so applicable for both learning how to challenge shame-based belief systems that are well-established even by our teenage years, and we don't even need a parent or anyone else to tell you.

Speaker 3:

We tell ourselves even your peers are like you suck, you suck, you suck.

Speaker 2:

You know, we, we, we get it in our head and then so changing that takes effort and you have to be really, really intentional about it. You have to recognize that first of all, you have to be willing to see what's going on and admit to it, and then you have, and, and until we can't change anything we don't acknowledge once we acknowledge that we can make the change.

Speaker 1:

How do you recognize those feelings or those thoughts?

Speaker 2:

I say this is just me. I don't know if this is. I don't know. This is not based on research, this is just me, but I tend to think that the body never lies so and I'm not a super body aware person. I'm old and I've had to continue to learn how to listen to my body signals when I'm feeling shame when do I feel shame? And I've had to continue to learn how to listen to my body signals when I'm feeling shame where?

Speaker 2:

do I feel shame, I tend to feel it in my head. I just start tingling from the head down. When I'm embarrassed, when I feel upset, mad at myself I've done something wrong, I tend to feel it in my head. When I feel anxiety, I tend to feel it in my stomach. I'd get a hit in my stomach. It's like I, you know, it's like an ache, it's like a burn.

Speaker 2:

Um, I don't think our body lies. We just spend a lot of time not listening to our body, you know, and trying to ignore it. So I will often tell people listen to your body signals first. They will tell you and you need to learn what, where these things live in your body. And so if I say, where are you feeling that Like, where are you feeling that shame, or where are you feeling that like embarrassment, and you know some people will be like, oh my gosh, behind my eyes, or you know my ears are hurting, or so that's a good place to start is to just just to take a moment I mean we call this mindfulness in the, you know, in the world of mental health sometimes but just take a moment to be present and just kind of body scan head to toe.

Speaker 2:

What am I feeling and, oh, that's, that's sadness. I usually feel that straight in my chest. That's what I can't hardly swallow when I can't hardly breathe, that's when I'm sad. My anger is my shoulders. I just wear my shoulders like earrings, just you know, like I can hold it, so it's just being aware, and then I can address the emotion. Then I can be like, okay, what do I need to do? Do I need to talk to somebody? Do I need to confront something? Do I need to take a nap? Like, what do I need to do to deal with?

Speaker 1:

it? Yeah, that's interesting. Um, now that you got me thinking about that, I recognize like I've always been a warrior, ever since I was a little kid I would. We lived in Arizona growing up and like I was deathly terrified of tornadoes. And they don't happen in Arizona, but like as a kid I was like it's going to happen. Every time there's a dust storm I was like this is it, and I just feel like this pit in my stomach, like you were talking about. But then when I'm like anxious for something, like if I have a presentation at work, it's in my chest. Um, so it's kind of interesting. Now you're saying that it's like that makes a lot of sense to me and I think men and women.

Speaker 2:

but men, men, tend to be pretty in tune with their body and I, I think sometimes, I, I hopefully, I mean they're very often times they're physical, they, they're all with their body, they're trying to figure things out. Sometimes they just need to add the emotional piece to it. It's not just that your shoulders ache. There might be, you might be holding emotion there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, yeah, I'm curious. What are some of the most common things that men struggle with in terms of feelings or just mental health struggles in general?

Speaker 2:

I think I don't think this is maybe necessarily unique to men, but I think men struggle a lot with just feelings of self-worth, feeling like they're good enough. You know, something that is so prevalent is the comparison Like this. That's something that we didn't really have to deal with growing up. I mean, we compare ourselves to like kids at school when we saw them, or our neighbor he bought a nice car.

Speaker 2:

We'd be like man he got a nice car. I wish I had that. That's about as much comparison as you got, or maybe a couple of things on TV or magazine, but the comparison game is no joke.

Speaker 1:

And I magazine. But the comparison game is no joke and I think, yeah, it's amplified now, like social media makes that much more difficult to manage.

Speaker 2:

I feel like and we can see what people are driving, the vacations are taking where they live, what they're doing, their kids, their accomplishments, their degrees, their, you know, whatever. And you know, men have a deep need to feel accomplished and, I think, respected and um a deep need to feel desired, and I think, I think those are the. Those are the areas that um, sometimes, sometimes men can beset anyone. You know, if I get into bad habits or you know if that's another vicious cycle, I start doing something that's against my value system or betraying my value system, and then I start, then the self-worth, you know, starts getting affected and I can count on depression and anxiety, but but it's, it's most likely situational. If I can resolve my, if I can get back in line, get my, get myself online and in line with my value system, usually, usually that stuff will will correct itself, unless it was there before. That's why I started doing the things that I did.

Speaker 1:

Hmm, that is really interesting. Um, if you don't mind, maybe I'll put you through a real life practice here. Um, so I I'll be a little bit vulnerable here, but that is one thing that I struggle with, uh, pretty consistently is the fact of, uh, I'll achieve something or I'll work towards something, and I'll be like man, like what's next, Like I got to do something else, Like I don't feel, like that was enough. Good example is like when I first I love running and I ran my first 50K, which is around 31 miles, in Arizona last July, and after I was done, like it was a huge accomplishment it's the furthest I've ever ran but after that I was like man, like it wasn't enough. And it could be because I I watch all these ultra marathon runners on social media who do 250 plus miles like all the time, Um, and I don't know if it could be that.

Speaker 1:

But, um, like I'll achieve something, I'll get to a certain point and be like man I didn't, I didn't get to where I want to go. I need to keep going, Like that kind of thing. What do you think that is?

Speaker 2:

I think. I don't know exactly, but I have an idea that I mean, I think it's that whole thing of learning how to be okay with and celebrate. You know, celebrate our celebrate, take time to celebrate our accomplishments before moving on to the next.

Speaker 2:

You know, some of us are just highly driven. You may be a highly driven person in certain areas of your life, but but sometimes we can drive so hard we can drive ourself crazy and we can drive people out of our life if we you know or drive people we love crazy, crazy too. So, moderation's the game, always in mental and emotional health and figuring out when's my like. Is this just an interest, or is this perfectionism? Or is this? Me comparing myself to what. What's the standard? That.

Speaker 2:

I'm putting myself to and why. So I think it's worth a analysis, probably to sit down and think, okay, why am I unsatisfied?

Speaker 2:

with an accomplishment that I have? And why do I struggle to celebrate me and not wait for the next big thing to happen? So that could be easily remedied by hitting the brakes and saying I'm going to celebrate every hard one victory. I've done a lot of school, for instance, and I've had a lot of success and a lot of failure. I've had to retake classes. I've failed major exams. It would have been very easy to quit, you know, just like a marathon, if I tripped and fell, or ice cream, you know what I mean. Or my time wasn't what I thought, but I'm really grateful that I didn't, because I would not have enjoyed all the learning along the way. So I think there's a maturity factor to that. Sometimes there's just a, you know, learning how to stop the smell of roses and all the things that we do. Um, I don't know that that's always mental anything, but I think it's. It's emotional maturity. And remember, we're in that process. We're technically adolescent until we're 27, which is kind of crazy.

Speaker 2:

Our brain is still forming and figuring out who we are. We consider adolescents clear into the mid to late 20s. So, yeah, that's not a bad thing, it's a good thing. But it's really important to know that I'm not always full pre my prefrontal the part of my brain that's reasons, you know that says oh, that's enough and I'm a good person. And I should probably not say that. I should say I'm sorry, that's still forming up until that age. So I can be pretty limbic, which the part of the brain that's just go, go, go, fight, flight, heavy emotion. And sometimes we want to hold ourself, you know, to a standard that maybe our brain's not there yet. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that makes total sense. That's another thing to think about.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Maybe I need to sit down and do that. I love to journal, and so that might be a good way for me to just think about that, because I'm working on it. I've definitely gotten better Like it used to be you can ask Ali, it was way worse, but now, like, we have done some of those things like celebrate the small victories and, you know, try and make the most of things. And what's interesting is when we like, if we do have failures and the things that we're doing, uh, we try and celebrate those too, because we say, hey, at least we tried and we did our best.

Speaker 1:

Um, but failure is an interesting one. Uh, I feel like men deal with that and women, I'm sure, do as well, but I feel like men deal with that quite a bit. Um, that feeling of failure, either with the if they're starting a business and that fails, or if they start a fitness journey and something goes wrong and they don't lose the 20 pounds they said they were going to. Whatever the scenario is, I feel like failure is something that looms in men's minds.

Speaker 2:

I think so too, and I think you just can't make failure the destination. Yeah. Failure's just part of the. It's part of the deal. And I hate it. Nobody loves it Like I've never been, like, yeah, I'm so glad I failed. However, if I I'd always say, if I can ride out the storm, I can always look back and think, you know, I learned something. Here's something I learned from that that mistake, that failure, that, whatever you want to call it, there's a writer that his name is Viktor Frankl. I love him, yeah, and we always talk about.

Speaker 2:

You know, we can handle any, any suffering, as long as we can attach meaning to it. So sometimes we have to hold on for the hindsight, we have to hold on for the meaning, because I can look back at really profound what someone would consider failures in my life and if I make a meaning out of them, they are manageable, I can put them someplace and go. Okay, that wasn't fun, but this is. This is something that I learned from it and I think, um, for men there is some there's a lot of pressure, there's a pressure to succeed, there's pressure to, even the basics, take care of their family, their kids, their wife, you know, whatever their situation is. Um, even if they're single I work with single adults a lot and they feel an immense amount of, you know, pressure to make a certain amount of money, to have a certain amount of you know and I, and that that's hard, you know, and women face their own, some of those and others.

Speaker 2:

but but but I think I think one of the things that a lot of men struggle with them and the, I think what we call it, it's like the etiology, like the background to why some men struggle so much with different things often has to do with their inability to connect with other men healthily. We live in a world that does not it?

Speaker 2:

our connections are so, um, unreal, like they're they're very superficial superficial that's the word I'm looking for and uh, but most mental illness, a lot of even bad patterns, addictions, things like that are all rooted in, um, unstable attachments, not having secure attachments, um, because the minute I'm imperfect or I mess up, I stop connecting, I shut in, I shut down. And the one thing we need to be healthy individuals in this world, based on research, is healthy attachment.

Speaker 1:

Interesting. Cannot not get healthy alone. Have to have good attachment.

Speaker 2:

Can I not get healthy alone? Have to have good attachment.

Speaker 1:

That makes total sense. Like, even when I'm super down on the dumps and we go and hang out with some friends usually we get together with couples, it one, it just it takes my mind off of it immediately because you know you have to be present in that moment, you have to connect with others. And then, too, it's like, yeah, you know they're probably dealing with something similar and I might say something that they can chime in and be like, hey, well, you know that might be tough, but here's what I've done, something similar, and here's what I've done. Um, just sharing that experience with other people. I think is is crucial. Uh, it helped me a ton during my own journey.

Speaker 1:

Um, you know, I didn't really have friends during the time, but like close friends, I would say. But um reached out a lot to my brother, uh, to my dad, to Allie, uh, like all the, all these people who I knew loved me and cared about me and wouldn't mind if I just talked to him for a little bit. But, yeah, connection is huge. It's um. It makes me sad, though, because I know not a lot of people have that support system out there and they're looking for it.

Speaker 2:

And they're they just but. But we're all out here, we can find it. We just have to get um open and awkward and ask and find your, find your village, find your, find everybody has to have a village. Um your partner's awesome, but if you're not happy with your partner then you have to have healthy people. Pass that Um, for men need other men, women need other women and and family members and things like that. So the opposite.

Speaker 2:

Of you know, emotional struggle is connection for most people but, they don't feel like it when they're in the middle of the struggle. In the middle of the struggle, all they want to do is isolate. And then you take something like you know, we've got the whole consequence of COVID and what happened with the pandemic, and we took the one thing away from people that we need to be healthy. I mean, let's forget all the, even push aside all the medical problems. What we took away was the ability to connect meaningfully, and that that is where we're kind of reaping the consequences of some of that right now. And so so the way we counteract that and men, the way they counteract negativity in their life and struggle with whatever that struggle is, is to create what we call find a space where you find common humanity. That's what happened. So if you see a buddy and you're like man, I'm really struggling, I can't get this business off the ground and I feel like a piece of crap. And you're like dude, I've totally been there. I feel that way too.

Speaker 2:

It's like it just takes it's like it's like an inoculation of for shame, because you're not alone, you've come out of hiding and you're loved anyway. Like that's magic it's just magic, it really is.

Speaker 1:

Like you get someone who understands you and what you've been through and it's a little bit easier to to get through it just with someone who who's done it before. And you see them where they're at and you're like, okay, maybe I can, maybe I can push through and and maybe I can learn something during this time that will help me get better. But it's that connection piece that's interesting. I like that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I'm curious what you saw during COVID actually, um, cause you did bring, bring it up and now I just, yeah, I want to know what was that like? What?

Speaker 2:

was uh, what did COVID do to all of us? It was, it was sad. Um, even for therapists, you know, I feel like a lot of my clients that I were I was working with with different things just slipped right back into old patterns, because again they come out of hiding. They've come out of isolation to get help and we could no longer connect in the same ways. They could no longer connect. So, um, I don't think we even know the ramifications yet. I think we're just starting to crawl out and see, kind of come up for air, literally and figuratively, like you know what happened when you shut the world down and you tell people not to go hold the hand of their grandparent as they pass away or something like what I think.

Speaker 2:

I think we'll probably see consequences. I think connections the biggest one. Hopefully we'll use it as a teaching like, oh, I never, ever want to find myself in that situation and people are important. You know I work a lot with addiction and people who have compulsive or addictive or you know behaviors are just sublimating. They're trying to cope with life in an unhealthy way, but those are off the chart because they have nowhere to go, nobody talked to. So the one thing that feels addiction is isolation man.

Speaker 2:

So, my addict struggled the most Um and most people just don't know like you can get out of any negative pattern with good connection.

Speaker 2:

A therapist is a good start. Obviously, family is awesome if you have that, but if you don't, we're a family of humanity. Find somebody, find people. People are looking for the same thing. Somebody's got to make the first move right. Someone's got to say, ah, I need help. Let me take you to dinner, let's go get a drink or something. Or let's go, do you run something? And or let's go, do you run? Do you play ball? Do you golf? Do you pickleball? Like? What do you do like?

Speaker 1:

let's go, you know, let's strike up a friendship yeah, no, that's, that's super interesting and I I mean, I I saw that myself with with some of my friends during that time. Um, you know, unfortunately they're they're no longer friends just because they've taken different paths. But a lot of it stemmed from from covid, like just being isolated, and, like you were saying, I feel like a lot of people just didn't know how to manage their minds during that time. Um, it was a very uncertain time, a lot of fear, I think, and because of that, you know, like you said, people tried to cope with it in different ways that were unhealthy and, yeah, hopefully, hopefully, you know, we don't see something like that in the future. But yeah, I do see the danger in isolation for sure.

Speaker 2:

Hopefully we learned from it, so if heaven forbid something like that happened. We know we cannot isolate, we cannot be alone. We'll have to figure out a way I don't know what, but I mean worst case. You know we could get online and zoom or whatever.

Speaker 2:

But that's a very low level of connection frankly Like there's something people will ask me a lot Do you do zoom? Like you know? Will you do zoom? I'm like, yes, I will do video counseling, but I try, and for me maybe it could be my age, but I try and make it the exception, not the rule, because I there's something about being in a room and um, being present to somebody else in their, in their struggle. That is connecting and I can see their body language better. I can see, I can read things better and we just connect better.

Speaker 1:

So I'm always grateful and I have a lot of people are like never zoom, I'll never do it, I'll cancel, I feel like I'm the same way, like I um, yeah, I mean I can see the benefit for for zoom, you know, therapy or or connection in that way, if you know someone might be scared to go try it for the first time and they just want to get into it that way. But, um, definitely I think it's, it's beneficial, at least for me. This is me speaking here.

Speaker 2:

Well, for some people it works just great. I I'm not. I just think that there's it's different, right. Like I think that's that's something new. That sort of really emerged out of COVID was all of the online connecting around this stuff and, like I said, my age kind of, I'm sure, like come to my office, come to my office. I want to see you. I want to see you interact with each other. It's hard for me to see what's going on yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1:

Um, that's funny. Do you know who chris williamson is, by chance?

Speaker 2:

no, I don't think so he's he's another podcaster.

Speaker 1:

He's actually the guy I listened to Dr Amen on, oh okay, but he talks about this thing called lower forms of communication and at the top, obviously the best way to communicate is in person, so face-to-face, like you were saying. Second to that would probably be a Zoom call, Second to that would be a phone call and then it's like email text and it just keeps going down that way. But the lower that you go down the list, the less connection you have or the further you go down and because of that, like you know, you're not. If someone sends a text to you and it says, OK, that could be read, OK or OK. Ok, yeah.

Speaker 1:

It's like you just don't know. You can't read emotions through through texting, unfortunately, and you know it's easy, it's convenient, but at the end of the day, the best way that we're going to communicate is, you know, if we are sitting together or however that looks.

Speaker 2:

As often as we can. Yeah, yeah. Not always possible but it is the highest form of being in the same place.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean absolutely Like my wife, and I see that right now she's based in Mesa and so for about three days of the week she's down there flying, and it's completely different when we're FaceTiming versus when we're together. It's nice to be able to do that because otherwise, you know, I wouldn't be able to see her face every day. But it's so much different and it's, I mean, it's not that hard to explain because I feel like you know you, when you're there, you're present, you're not distracted, and yeah, I think it's it's something I wish we would. We would do. More is, like you know, hang out and do whatever. So it's interesting you bring that up.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I know too, like, like I know my, my own husband, like there are times when you know I can be that person, Like I can be that I can be that listening board, I can be that like you know person, that we can talk about things and I can help him through something, or vice versa. But there are times when I'm not it, Like I just I want to. Well, that's a lie, Sometimes I want to and sometimes I don't, but like I'm so grateful that he has enough, like he's, he's created a village of his own of men that I know love, not just him, they love me as well. So they're never going to talk trash about me, but they'll talk to him, I'm sure, about me.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if that's what he needs to talk about Um, but I trust that they're that kind of friend that would actually um hold space for whatever and he comes home sometimes from his golf trip or his pickleball in the morning or whatever, just better, better able to connect with me, because he's got good connection outside of me from good people that love him and that he loves and I'm just like, yeah, yeah, and I try and do the same, right, so we don't put that kind of pressure on the relationship that you're my one and only ever on yours. If you can't be there for me, then I'm not going to be. You know that to me that's, that's putting your neck on that partner in a way that sometimes isn't helpful. Isn't helpful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, what are the dangers in that that you've seen?

Speaker 2:

Well, I just think it puts a lot of pressure on the partner to fix the other person, like they don't know what to do. They, they love the person, but they love their partner. But if all my joy and my peace is all found in just one person, that's just an awful lot of pressure on one person.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I guess that's fair. I can see, like you know, if you do have all your you know stability in one person, we can call it or connection in one person and that person doesn't have the answer. You feel like you might just hit a brick wall and you're like, well, there's nowhere to go now. It's like I'm stuck again. And then they like, oh no and then you wall and you're like well, there's nowhere to go.

Speaker 2:

Now it's like I'm stuck again. And then they like, oh no, and then you've, then you're stuck in the wherever place you're in. I tell couples all the time like you want to be really careful that you. So if you take a partnership and one and the other and you put them together, um, you can put them together like this, or you can put them together like this, or you can put them together like this, they're both just as close. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But this one. Sometimes it can get a little tangled and messy. Like if one person's sad, I'm sad. If they're happy, I'm happy. If they're not, I'm not, yeah. But in this regard we can lean on each other for support. But if one person is in the pit, then at least there's somebody up here to like throw the rope, you know like. So this is just as close. It's just, we were there to support each other, but but we can't put everything on one person because it puts too much pressure on the relationship. And that's the same with friendships. Like I can't just have one, buddy, I gotta have like I gotta have a few.

Speaker 2:

Cause there's a guy that helps me, you know, at the gym and he gets it, he gets my health goals. And then there's a guy who gets my relationship because he's married too and, you know, has a young family or whatever. And then there's like this, this, or whatever. And then there's that, this, this, the buddy from work that gets my goals for work. Like, sometimes we need a group like, we need a, like, we need a network of people in our lives who are there to support us. Some people are lucky enough and a lot of those people can be family, but a lot of times that's not the case for, I would say, the majority of people. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Um, I'm sure you you've dealt with people who don't have that support system built. Um, do you suggest any, any ways to start on that path of like finding those people who you can rely on, or anything like that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I, when I work with people, I, I, we just start small. Like I said, we start with friends we go to the gym with, we go to church with, we go to school with work with. You know everybody could look around and go. Oh yeah, that guy's always been really nice, like he always buys me a drink, you know take, you know, I always go to dinner with him or something, and he's always he's pretty open with me. I just don't really say much to him or her or whatever.

Speaker 2:

So you know. So I think if you look around, you can build and nurture relationships. You just have to. Sometimes you have to test the water. You know I tell people, don't jump in the deep end, Don't be like, hey, I just want to tell you about my divorce, Like you know, I just want to tell you about my this problem or that problem, but give one little benign, you know, like, yeah, just a little, put your toe in the water with them and see if they're a safe person. Do they hold confidence? Do they give you good feedback? Are they reciprocal in the vulnerability? Do they share things in return or are they just taking it in? So kind of, test the water and see if they're a safe person for you and start small. Find people with common hobbies. That's usually for for guys, that's kind of it. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Girls we can be like let's go get her nails done. Talk about life, you know.

Speaker 2:

And guys they have guys tend to have to find guys who share interest, like they're runners, like you said. They find their running crowd, they find their, their bikers, they go to the gym there where they have some kind of unique hobby. You know they they like drag racer, drag racing or I don't know. They find the thing that and then they're. They're usually confined friends in in those areas. But but we will not be healthy without good connections, men or women, we just won't. People with low connections spend a lot of time in my office.

Speaker 1:

Oh man.

Speaker 2:

Scratching their head saying I can't figure out why I feel how I feel I'm like. So have you talked to anybody about that? I remember we were going to call somebody and they're like oh yeah, no, haven't done that. And I'm like well, I bet you're going to schedule another appointment because they're using me as their connection and because I'm ethical. I won't let them do that for long. But I, I I'm always working towards building their network and working myself out of a job. Every therapist should be working themselves out of a job.

Speaker 1:

I like that mindset. Um, yeah, that's, that's important. Um, do you think the main reason people don't do that Like oh yeah, you know, you said you were going to make a phone call Do you think that's just out of fear, like trusting someone initially, or what's that like?

Speaker 2:

I think so, and a lot of people. If you've lived in this world long enough, you've had betrayal. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Somebody hasn't kept your confidence or you know they've talked about you behind your back or they haven't shown up when you said. They said they would, um, because people are fallible. Um, but we have to recognize I have that trust issue He'll, you know, do whatever I need to do to heal. Work through it. Journal is a great way. Write about it, talk about it with someone you trust and then, but, but don't quit trusting because someone was untrustworthy.

Speaker 1:

Right, yeah, there is good.

Speaker 2:

There are always good people out there but there's also going to be bad people out there and you just have to like well, people are in their own wounds, right, they kind of they. They act in their own, their own, it's their own struggle. So if they don't show up or they do something that they shouldn't, it's usually coming from their own injuries. So when I see people that way then I don't personalize it quite as much. I'm like oh, I really hope that that would have been a friend, so it will be more of an arm's length acquaintance or something. But we have to keep testing the water and keep pushing towards connection Always. That will help everything.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love that and it is interesting about connection and stuff and you can find connection through hobbies and stuff like that, like I was talking about with running. I um one of my friends. He's coming on the podcast on Thursday but his buddy was running 31 miles for his 31st birthday at a park, um, and the park was a one mile loop and I didn't know this guy but my buddy invited me there and I was like okay, sure, why not? And I ran 10 miles with this guy and by the end we were like good buddies and it's just interesting, it was like an hour and 20 minutes of just us running around but at the end we were like, hey, we should hang out sometime.

Speaker 2:

Well, you have the same interests. It's like automatic. You have something that brings you together.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think it also part of it's like you have to put yourself out there. You know you have to look for those opportunities and it could be scary at first, but I love the quote that fear is a mile wide but an inch deep, like it looks like this huge scary thing that's in front of you, but once you step into it you're like this isn't as bad as I thought it was and you just walk through.

Speaker 2:

Well, and sometimes we can learn how to embrace the fear. Like the fear is part of what's pushing us, like, why do I feel afraid of that? I'll tell people, like, if you're afraid to go to therapy or you're afraid to do this thing or that thing, that's probably your indicator that you need to do it. You know, to me it's we either avoid or we embrace. But we can't learn with avoidance. We can only learn with try. You know, I have a funny story about running that just occurred to me when you were saying that my son-in-law is a distance runner, he's an ultra runner, he's running his first hundred next month.

Speaker 1:

Holy cow. Do you know where it is?

Speaker 2:

I'm curious.

Speaker 1:

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2:

Oregon somewhere. Anyway, he has a cousin who is a runner and his wife was a very well-known runner and uh, she was running in new york city. She was there for treatment, cancer treatment. She was running around central park, her and her husband, and uh, chip gains was sitting on a bench. I don't know why he and his wife were there but, saw them running and stopped him and said hey, I want to learn how to run. And she, she's like okay, he's like who are you? Anyway, they struck up this friendship and she became his trainer.

Speaker 2:

When he started to learn how to run, she passed away from her cancer and he raised tons of money for her foundation. And all from just people willing to put themselves out there and say, hey, it doesn't matter who they are, they, he happened to be a famous person, but I mean sitting on a park bench. Nobody was there. There's no cameras, there's no kids, there's no nothing. He just saw these people running and they just happened to be.

Speaker 2:

You know, somebody that related to my son-in-law, but I thought it's such a good example of you know that related to my son-in-law, but I thought it's such a good example of you know, this is how we survive well in in society is we connect, we find common common interest and common humanity in each other and a lot of our mental issues and emotional issues just get swept into, you know, and get, get helped through. That it's not everything, it's not one and done. I'm not saying that, but but it's such an important, important element. Um, sue Johnson's a big researcher in my field and she talks all about all, all about emotional connection and and and attachment and secure attachment and what that has to do with relationships and individual mental health. So I very much resonate with her work and, as I see people make good connections and start to do that, their life just improves.

Speaker 2:

It just improves. It's not everything, but it's a big piece of the puzzle.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, I think that's amazing and for me it's almost like you become, like you said, more emotionally mature and you become more familiar with these feelings that you you do have and you're able to manage them a lot better.

Speaker 1:

And some of that is like okay, I need to reach out to Brian at work, because he understands what I'm dealing with there. Or Johnny at the gym, wherever it is like having these people to help you um, at least gives you more ammo to be able to to deal with it yourself and to to learn from it. Um, because, like you know, I talked about at the beginning how I've had mental health issues, um, and I wouldn't say they're a hundred percent, you know, gone, gone or like cleared up. But I'm definitely better able to like manage them and be like okay, well, I'm feeling kind of angry, like did I sleep Okay, did I not sleep Okay? Like what, what did I eat today? And just trying to understand, like what happened throughout my day that might've led to those feelings, and then be like, okay, well, I know it'll end and I know I'll be fine tomorrow.

Speaker 2:

So it's okay, it's temporary. That kind of sparked an idea, though, like another really important piece of managing emotion is creating structure and balance and the key areas of life. So most times when we are extremely we're struggling a lot with something you can look at. I have people. One of the tools that I give people like right out of the chute, is I have them do what I call dailies. I have them focus on four areas of excuse me, five areas of their life emotional, physical, excuse me, personal, physical, spiritual, relational Four.

Speaker 2:

I do so many of these. That's what I have to do Four and they set two goals in each of those areas. So, personal are like goal, like interests and hobbies and things like that. Um, physical, obviously, is their body, sleep, diet, grooming, whatever, um. Spirituals, whatever their spiritual practice, is their connection with their higher power, um, and then relational connections with others. So I have them set two goals that they and they might already be doing some of them, but I have them be very intentional and track those two things they do every day in those areas and if they come in and they're off kilter, I'll say tell me about your dailies, and they tell me the same two words every time oh, yeah, oh yeah, I forgot about those.

Speaker 2:

I'm like okay, so, and I think about it too in my own life, like, and I adjust those as needed, like you said, like we have to be good stewards over the one thing we have, which is us. Yeah, we are stewards over us. So so if I, if I'm doing too much work and not enough connection with the people that matter, I'm going to have a problem. Too much playtime and not enough spiritual practice is going to be a problem. You know not if I'm doing too much a problem.

Speaker 2:

Too much playtime and not enough spiritual practice is going to be a problem. You know not, if I'm doing too much work and too much church but not enough like hobby and the things that make me me, I'm going to have a problem. So I have a colleague that says life, life really is like trying to stand up in a canoe in rough water without pads, Like you're constantly. You're constantly shifting your weight, trying not to go over, and sometimes we go over, get back in the boat, but just realize, like you know, balanced minds require balanced behavior. We have to create a structure that will support our mental and emotional health.

Speaker 2:

So look into my life and say what am I doing for myself physically every day, on purpose, Like? I try and evaluate those every Sunday and I set them for the next week. And you know I'm going to have to get extra sleep this week because I have extra hours. Or I'm going to have to make sure that I'm eating because I have I you know I'm eating during the day, or I'm I'm eating the right snacks during the day because of whatever. Or, um, I need to make sure that I'm reaching out to friends this week, or talking to my kids, or talking to my spouse or whatever Like, um, we have to do that on purpose, not happenstance, because the structure and, yeah, structure and balance will just create balance.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I love that. I, um, I I believe that you know you cannot improve what's not being tracked and I feel like this is a great start to be like okay, well, like you said, those four areas, I'm going to set two goals in each one and I'm going to revisit them because you know, I um, yeah, I yeah, exactly, and you can see that, um, I always like no-transcript.

Speaker 1:

I'm getting better. And then two, if there is progress, like where can I double down and improve even more, or whatever that looks like. But I love that and that's a great exercise.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's simple and everybody should do it. It doesn't matter if you're a struggler or not. Just I think the the world we live in really creates the temptation to be out of balance in a lot of ways. I can find myself droning out on social media for, like, flat out, I'll look in. The time is 30 minutes and I'm like, how did that happen?

Speaker 2:

Um but if I, if I am holding myself to account and giving myself some making sure that I'm counterbalancing those kinds of temptations just to lean too far on one corner of that canoe and throw myself over um, then I will, and then I will manage what life throws at me just a little bit better. Um, I just will be able to handle the work stress, the relationship stress, the you know health stressors, the money stressors, whatever it is that you know come at us Um, but that, like I said, that's a, that's a baseline assignment I give almost well, I would say probably every one of my clients like I can't, I can't, you can't, come to me and magic in 45 minutes, and then you're going to leave and be like I got it.

Speaker 2:

You know, it's about how you practice at home and you know, and the insight you get when you're with me is should be the icing on the icing on the cake of the cake you're already building in your life. Do you have any other?

Speaker 1:

tools that you recommend for that.

Speaker 2:

That's my big one. I call that dailies. I do a lot. It depends on what the issue is. That's the big one for balance. Sometimes I give couples I do a lot of couples work, so I give them tools on how to communicate about things. Um, I love Gottman's work Mary and John Gottman. I just think they're amazing. They've done some amazing work with couples. Um, but I would say I would say get good connection, create balance and by creating routine and structure in your day, um, make sure that relational connections are in there. Um, have accountability, have people who can hold your feet to the fire but love you the same, you know.

Speaker 2:

Um and get help when that you know. If that doesn't help and you are doing everything that you can, then that's what we're for.

Speaker 2:

Yeah that's what. That's what I'm trained to do. So then we can start kind of figuring it out, analyzing and figuring out. It may be chemical. It may be that maybe something's going on with the body. Something else is going on with the body. People will come in with extreme levels of depression. I will send them to their doctor first. I want full blood plan. I want thyroid tests. I want. I want to do that and rule that out. First, um, hormone tests, those kinds of things like what you were mentioning. Um, because that's not something you can just will yourself right.

Speaker 1:

You know your body can, yeah, yeah as much as you'd like to, it's it's, it's almost impossible, like I wanted to believe I could. So bad and um, I I love what you said about like this, the world doesn't really preach balance, like it wants you to be unbalanced. Because when I was um first in college, I told you like I follow all these navy seal guys and they're always about like, go, go, go, like, push yourself as hard as you can.

Speaker 1:

Yeah exactly David Goggins and I was like, okay, well, that's, that's how I have to be if I want to be a successful person. And I quickly like I don't burnout's probably the best way I can explain it. But within like three years I like developed all these weird um, I guess, mental and emotional issues, I think just because I tried suppressing everything I was feeling so I could just be productive. And it's interesting, like I look back now and I'm like that was the wrong way of dealing with it, but I'm glad I have that, that understanding now.

Speaker 2:

And then you know what not to do next time you feel a certain way, you'll be like. I tried that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2:

I'll try it this way.

Speaker 1:

Right. So it's pretty interesting. But I am curious because I feel like a lot of men, like we've talked about, just don't know how to ask for help and that can be a scary thing. And I know men are more correct. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they're four times more likely to commit suicide.

Speaker 2:

I don't know the exact stat, but I know they're. Usually they use more lethal means and they're more successful at it when they do. Yeah. Generally.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, generally so. Um, if someone's not, you know, ready to ask for help, are there common signs that loved ones can look for to you know spot if something might be wrong with someone, and, if so, what should that person do to offer help, if any?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's really tricky. It's tricky because, um, when you're dealing with an adult, you don't have a lot of control, meaning the control lies with them, but isolation is one of the first Shutting in. Not going, not connecting with or reaching out to or engaging like they normally would, would be a huge red flag for a big problem. That would be number one. Um, what they say, how they talk, are they out of sorts? Do they talk about? Um? Do they talk? You know, is is, is it a pretty? Is it a dark conversation? You know?

Speaker 2:

what I mean it's a negative about themselves or others. Um, that's another one. I mean, there's some others, depending you know. Are they financially failing? Are they relationally failing, Like what's going on? And for families? Sometimes you have to take extreme measures to save somebody. I just flat out ask I'm just that person. I'm just like are you feeling suicidal? Do you want to hurt yourself or are you feeling and oftentimes people are shocked that I ask it because most people dance around it- Um they don't want to offend the person and I I'll take the risk because I will do whatever.

Speaker 2:

If there's someone I love to save them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

So I would say, ask the question, do it gently, do it kindly, you know like find your, find your Avenue, but are you feeling? Are you feeling this way? Are you feeling that way? How far have you gone with those thoughts? Um, have you made a plan? Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know, um, suicidality is one of the saddest, because you know it's, it's a, it's a hard battle with depression, depression. But, um, I, like I said, I always go in the front door, like I, I I'd love to have you in my life for a long time, I, even if you don't want you in my life. Um, so what can I do to help? Do you need, do you need, me to check in with you? Do you need? You know there's lots of resources there's. You know you can always just go to the ER. You can go. There's what's mind, there's the emergency. Now, I'm trying to remember what it's called. You can just they're open 24, seven, like an ER, but for mental health, mind, I'll figure out what it is that said it to you but really, really helpful for people in an emotional crisis. Um, sometimes people just need someone to talk to and sometimes they need intervention. They need a doctor, they need meds, they need, they need something in the interim until they can get the help that they need.

Speaker 2:

Um it's scary. Mental health is kind of scary because a lot of people just don't know what to expect. You know they? Well, they're like what are they going to tell me something? You know, I don't know what. They tell me things I don't want to hear. They're going to make me do stuff I don't want to do.

Speaker 2:

Um, and most of the time when people come in, I'm like well, I'm not the expert in your life, you are what you know, so I, I don't. I can, I have some education and some knowledge and I'll shine lights, you know, here and there, and give you some ideas, but it's your job to take the path.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love that. No, I I appreciate you going into that a little bit, because that's something that's definitely become something I'm passionate about. Because, like you're saying, like it's it's sad to see someone just throw their life away because, you know, they can't get out of these cycles that we've we've talked about, or or they feel like they're broken and there's nothing that they can do to fix it. We've talked about, or or they feel like they're broken and there's nothing that they can do to fix it. Um, and so it. It makes me pretty sad, but I know that there is ways that we can help and influence, um, help influence for for the better.

Speaker 2:

And we don't give up. We, we save the people we love the best way and and we can use our best efforts. And it's not our fault if, you know, things go another way either. But but mental health and mental crises are just like a physical crisis, just like a heart attack or a stroke or anything else it's. It can be just as deadly and just as a dangerous to experience.

Speaker 2:

So what would I do if my loved one had cancer or you know I'd go to the ends of the earth looking, trying to help them, trying to find doctors that you know that's what we do. It doesn't matter what the illness is, um. And if you're a man struggling with any sort of emotional distress or you just can't overcome feelings or thoughts number one you have to know you're not alone. Feelings or thoughts number one you have to know you're not alone. You are not alone. Many men feel that way at different points in their life. It usually passes. It usually doesn't stay.

Speaker 2:

I always tell people emotions have a shelf life. Just give it its time. It won't last forever, even though it feels like it will in the moment. So do whatever you need to do to get through that day, that moment, that minute. But you're not alone and there is help. Don't be afraid to call a professional we're not all that and interview your professional. Find out who they are. Do they specialize in men's issues? Do they specialize in this or that? Do they? Will they meet your need? And just because you don't like them, the first visit or two, doesn't mean they're not right for you. Yeah, I can be a little assertive with. I've been doing this a long time and people be like oh no, I'm like don't leave, I got you.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes it's good to hear, though, like sometimes you know, um, I feel like that's another thing that this world is really good at is like tiptoeing around the actual issue, um, but you got to attack it head on sometimes. So I think men especially would probably appreciate that Um.

Speaker 2:

I think so and I tell them that you might not be the right person, but and it's okay Interview them, find out what their specialties are, find out you know who they work with and how long they've been doing it, and you know um. Look at reviews online. They're everybody's reviewed, see. You know if you know, get a referral from somebody you know. If you have a buddy or two, say have you ever seen a therapist or know anybody that has asking for a friend? No Asking for a friend.

Speaker 2:

But you know, like, do you have any ideas? Because I could, I could release, and so sometimes people you trust will know people. I have so many people that will call me and say, hey, my, my uncle was your neighbor and said she seemed pretty cool and I'm looking for somebody. Like, oh, okay, you know, so ask around. That's the best way to find somebody. I think, um, psychology today is usually pretty reliable. Um, it breaks down people's specialties. They're pretty vetted therapists on psychology. Today is a good place to find someone as well. But awesome.

Speaker 2:

Look for issues, ask them. This is what I'm struggling with. Do you have any training in any modalities that can help me?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I think that's good, like do your own due diligence, um, but I'm curious to what you would say, because this was my issue before going into therapy is what would you say to someone who's afraid of being judged by their therapist?

Speaker 2:

therapist. Yeah, um, welcome to the club. I would think most therapists. I mean, I've been doing this a long time and I will tell people even in my intake look, I am just not a judgmental person. It just isn't in my nature. But you might. If you feel judgment, then you need to ask. You just need to tell me that, um, because what goes on in the therapy or office sometimes is a microcosm in life. That's the way I show up in life, right, and so I'll say if you have resistance to things like that, I say or that's going on, there's that's probably happening outside of here, so let's just address it, just tell me, like I feel judged right now.

Speaker 2:

Or I feel like you're, I feel weird telling you that Cause I feel like you're going to think I'm weird or I don't know. Um, and then I'll, and then then we can talk through it.

Speaker 2:

But I would say push through that fear and find somebody that you feel comfortable with that has the skillset to help you. Um, your therapist will not know everything, nor should they. That is not. I am not an all knowing guru of, but I do have like a few skills that sometimes are helpful to people, specific people. I love working with men. I work with adult men. All the time I think the bravest men that I know have sat on my couch and and are working through variety of issues, whatever they are, but I think, just to even put themselves, in that situation tells me how courageous they are.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's how I feel I have a lot of respect for, because I know it's awkward and I know it's uncomfortable and probably not where they want to be.

Speaker 1:

Right, right, it really is hard, like you know. It's it's what we were talking about at the beginning. Like we've we've never been taught this emotional language that we need, really need to express ourselves and, um, having someone on the other end who can help you walk through that it's honestly game changing, like it helped me so much. It's honestly game changing, like it helped me so much. Um, and like now I still see a doctor, um, about every three months I'll talk to him and it just helps me to be like hey, this is what I'm feeling, and he'll be like all right, well, do this or do that, or like, great job here, but maybe you could work on this area. Um, and it's just like you know, it's good to have someone who's seen things like this before but knows how to manage it and has also seen those same people get better, and so I think it's just yeah, like I would agree with what you said Step into that fear, because what's on the other side is far greater than what you'd expect.

Speaker 2:

And what do you have to lose? Right if you're, if you're living in some sort of internalized hell, what do you have to lose? Yeah other than a little money and time, probably that, that yeah that's fair. But if the if they're an ethical therapist, then they're going to tell you how? How do I get you out of here? Let's get you out of here. Let's get you into living. What can?

Speaker 2:

I do to help you get there and walk that journey with them. That relationship shouldn't be forever. It should be for that time. So, like I said, I have a lot of respect for men who put themselves in that vulnerable because it's not comfortable for most and it's not been taught how to do that. It just has not been taught or modeled, Not by any fault per se of anyone. But my dad still calls me a shrink. He's 84 and I'm a shrink.

Speaker 1:

And that's fine I don't even know what a shrink is, but I've never understood that term either. If that helps.

Speaker 2:

But you know, generationally that's what they were called, like you know. And so I love to see, I love to see people embracing mental health and figuring out, um, love that. And I love to see people embracing mental health and figuring out love that. And I love to see men do it, because they're living in the same craziness that all the rest of us are. And.

Speaker 2:

I think all of us want to be as healthy as we can be, you know, and I just think that there's a lot of resources out there. You just have to go find them. And then, like I said, step, like I said step, step, just just step into the fear, just embrace it. It's okay. No one, most people, won't die from being afraid. It's gonna be okay yeah, yeah, we've.

Speaker 1:

I mean, humans have been afraid, you know, for thousands of years.

Speaker 2:

So, hey, it's okay If people have been in the past, Kind of like a safe thing to do just go in the cave. Yeah exactly, I love that.

Speaker 1:

That's awesome. But yeah, no, I appreciate everything we've talked about today. I think it's been helpful for me and hopefully it's helpful for someone out there who might be listening and just needs a little reassurance that that next step isn't as scary as they might think it is. But, yeah, before we wrap up, anything else that you want to share or leave with the audience before I close out.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think I didn't really address it, but there are some things that will require help. You won't do it on your own. I'm just going to say that as flat out as I can. I work in addiction. I work with process addictions. So I work with, basically, things that are already systems inside of us. Like, I work with sex addiction a lot. So sex is a system inside of us, but it's also, it can be used in such a way that creates compulsivity and can injure, you know, can kind of create a problem in the reward center of the brain, but most people do not typically overcome that alone there. We know that that is based. There's, there's a pattern for those things, um and there's. You're not broken because you can't fix it on your own.

Speaker 1:

Um, what's that quote, isn't it? A addiction thrives in isolation or secret connection.

Speaker 2:

Like that whole that whole connection piece we talked about.

Speaker 2:

But. But I just want to say, like a lot of people are living in that, they're living in that promise themselves. Let themselves down, feel like crap, do it again. Promise yourself and that promise themselves. Let themselves down, feel like crap, do it again. Promise themselves, let them sign it. All you know.

Speaker 2:

And that cycle, that addiction cycle, is we know how to treat that. That is something we know how to treat. So if you're caught in the cycle or any cycle of negative patterns of behavior, that just happens to be the one that I do, but there is hope and there is healing and there is help. And don't let it ruin your relationships, Don't let it ruin you, Um, don't let it take any more time than it has. When you're ready, Um, find a professional that knows how to do it. And, and the reason why we do that is we're seeking connection. We're just seeking it pathologically through a bottle, through a porn, through this, through that. It's like a bird running into a window. Though You'll knock yourself out every time, it's a good analogy You'll see what you're looking for.

Speaker 2:

It looks really great. This is the window. Then you're're out and you're like wake up, You're like what happened. Oh my gosh, um but. And it's also not about sex, it's not about drugs, it's not about any of that. It's always about emotional. There's always emotional undercurrents and needs for attachment. So so I just want to say that the offset, because that is, that is the struggle of there that struggle is, those struggles are so pervasive culturally, um yeah, I mean I.

Speaker 1:

I've seen people in my own life who have dealt with addiction, um different types, but um, it's sad to see and you know it's. It's tough for them to reach out because I I feel like you know yeah, exactly, um, but the thing that you said that like I think is the key piece here, is like there is hope, there's hope for a better future, there's hope Like you can overcome this.

Speaker 2:

Well, and I tell people all the time, I would have quit my job long ago if I didn't see people get better, Like I get the window into healing um, or it would have been the worst job on the planet, it would be terrible but, I get to see.

Speaker 2:

I get to not just see healing, I get to see thriving, and that is a pretty powerful experience. Um, so I just want to, yeah, hope it's, it's. It's a journey. It's not going to be easy per se, but being in it isn't easy either. So find somebody who can help you and move on with your life and figure out how to manage, figure out how to feel. How to deal with feelings for what they are.

Speaker 1:

That's great advice for anyone out there, myself included. So, but, yeah, kim, I I appreciate you really taking some time to come on the podcast today and and share some thoughts about this, just because, like, like I said, I'm passionate about it and I know many other people out there struggle with with their own mental health challenges and, um, you know, hopefully we are making the move in the right direction to allow it to be more common in terms of, like, helping out in regular conversations. But, um, yeah, I mean some of these tools and things I think will help the audience. So I really appreciate your time today.

Speaker 2:

You're so welcome. Thank you for the opportunity and for shedding a light on something we don't talk about enough. So thank you, of course.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, and everyone else for listening. Thank you so much and, as always, keep getting after it.