135 - Brynli Walker - Movement is Medicine

Most people only consider physical therapy after something breaks. A torn muscle. A blown-out knee. The kind of injury that makes you question if your body is still yours. But what if movement wasn’t just for recovery… but for prevention? For performance? For staying independent as you age?

In this episode, I sit down with Brynli Walker—a licensed physical therapist, athlete, mom, and all-around expert in helping people reclaim their bodies. We unpack what most people get wrong about pain, why surgery isn’t always the first (or best) option, and how your glutes, hips, and forgotten muscles might be the key to not just surviving… but thriving.

We cover everything from the surprising science of deadlifts, to running in silence, to the deeply unsexy exercises that actually work. This isn’t a motivational pep talk. It’s a grounded, practical exploration into what your body is capable of—and what it needs from you in return.

Expect to Learn:

• Why movement is often the missing prescription
• The real reason your knees or back might hurt—and what to do about it
• What most rehab protocols get wrong
• How to future-proof your body through strength and mobility
• Why comparison is the enemy of progress in the gym and in life

If you’ve ever wondered when to push, when to rest, or what recovery actually means—this is the episode for you.

Follow RSLNT Performance & Rehab

Studies referenced on the podcast. 

• Physical Activity during Pregnancy and Newborn Body Composition: A Systematic Review
• Exercise during pregnancy modulates infant cellular and whole-body adiposity
• Maternal Exercise during Pregnancy Impacts Motor Performance in 9-Year-Old Children: A Pilot Study

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I hope today’s episode sparked something within you to pursue your dreams and unlock your true potential. If you found value in it, consider sharing it with someone who might need that same push.

This podcast is built for you—the dreamers and the doers. My goal is to provide a space where you can find inspiration, learn from others, and feel empowered to chase what matters most to you.

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Brittany: From Swimming to Physical Therapy
• 5:43 Avoiding Surgery: Physical Therapy Success Story
• 10:40 How Physical Therapy Works: Assessment to Treatment
• 19:20 The Truth About Deadlifts and Back Pain
• 30:19 Marathon Training: Building Endurance Through Consistency
• 44:13 Recovery Essentials: Sleep, Nutrition and Movement
• 58:20 Building Resilience: Physical Challenges Create Mental Strength
• 1:08:29 Helping People Regain Function and Freedom
• 1:36:47 Parenting, Movement, and Creating Healthy Legacies

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

all right on, it's rolling, we're live, so we can jump into it anytime. Yeah, but, brittany, thanks for coming on, of course I'm excited. This is uh kind of fun because you're spencer's wife and now we're having, you know, full circle, both you guys on and both getting after it in many ways, and I'm pumped to hear what you have to say. So you're in physical therapy and you, you studied medicine, right, or what did you say? Physical therapy?

Speaker 2: 0:32

physical therapy. So it's kind of like the physical side of medicine. So you use movement as medicine. We still have to know some basic things about medicine, but not as in depthdepth as spencer gets, luckily.

Speaker 1: 0:44

So yeah, that's fair. Spencer was telling me some things. I'm like man, that's yeah it's intense, yeah, but um, yeah, I mean, have you always been into fitness? Like how, how did this?

Speaker 2: 0:54

yeah, so my my mom's a physical therapist and went to the? U as well and had me when she was in school, so kind of a full circle, because I did that with christian too, yeah, um, but then she started working out, so kind of a full circle, cause I did that with Christian too, um, but then she started working out and kind of managing a CrossFit gym when I was like 12 or 13. Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: 1:12

And so I would come with her sometimes and do little fun workouts, um. But then when I was junior high high school age, I was a swimmer and I realized that if I could train at the gym it helped my swimming a lot, so I started getting more and more into it. Then um started helping coach at the gym a little bit with my mom and just like discovered that I liked the same type of thing. I liked that people could get better at things by just moving, um, and I liked that. I just felt better, like I. It wasn't as much about what I looked like or, um, that aspect of it, I just liked that I could go out and swim a long distance or run a couple miles or do whatever I wanted to do and feel good.

Speaker 2: 1:57

So yeah and then physical therapy. I just I kind of always knew that's what I want to do, watching my mom. She got to work in hospitals at the gym in all sorts of different environments and I like that you can do that kind of anywhere and it's flexible. You can still be a mom and do what you want to do.

Speaker 1: 2:15

I think that is cool and yeah, I mean, I always tell my mom you just met her upstairs, but she always will tell me like oh man, my hips are tight. And I always tell my mom you just met her upstairs, but she always like will tell me like oh man, my hips are tight. And I'm like well, mom, have you been walking or anything? Like that and I always tell her like hey, motion is lotion. So I'm glad to hear that that's actually true.

Speaker 2: 2:33

Yeah, no, we use that all the time. Yeah it's, the movement is medicine, motion is lotion. I just think it's cool that, like drugs and surgery and all that stuff have its place, but there's a lot of things that just exercising and moving and doing things in a specific way, you can get better and you can eliminate pain, you can improve your function, and I just think that's so cool because it's something like you need someone to teach you and show you how to do it, but it's something you can do for yourself.

Speaker 1: 3:01

Yeah. So how do you see it? And, like at the beginning stages, was it mainly staying at the gym and watching people um and then trying it out yourself, or did you have a coach kind of helping you along in the beginning, like when you were, you know, 12, 14 or whatever that was?

Speaker 2: 3:15

Yeah, so I I I mean my mom was coaching, so I would do classes with her. Um, I also, as I got interested in physical therapy, I'd shadow her and other other people, other therapists around our community and different settings, um, so I kind of got to see like there's there's some differences between coaching and therapy, but there's a lot of crossover, um, and I kind of learned to love that. Like you could learn to coach somebody in the gym setting and those same kind of characteristics carried into when you're working with people in a hospital. You're still learning how to cue movement, how to correct their form or technique, yeah, um, but then with the therapy you have to get a little more specific with like things you're looking for, whereas a coach you're kind of staying in the more general realm. So that's true, yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:01

Yeah, cause I, um, I've coached a few people with running um, and that's very like. You just help them stick with the plan, um, you show them how to do certain things and then hope that they're doing it right. Um, I'm also not a certified coach, so, like, it probably wasn't the best, but, um, it's not as hard as like with what you're talking about making sure people are doing the right thing, making sure their form is correct, and, um, one thing about physical therapy is a lot of it is aimed to help with injuries, um, and I love that because, um, when I was in high school, I played volleyball for eight years and my senior year I actually had to stop because I had a. This is a crazy story, but, um, I had pain in my shoulder and unbearable, to the point to like I couldn't lift up my arm, and in volleyball you know it's a lot of overhead swinging.

Speaker 1: 4:56

And, um, we started going to like doctors and we're like, hey, well, what's going on? And they checked the an x-ray and it didn't really look too bad. There was like a spot that they were worried about on the joint, like the ball joint, and, um, what they were saying was like, oh well, it doesn't look bad Like. Let's get an MRI and see what's going on, cause they thought I had a labral tear.

Speaker 1: 5:18

Um and that's kind of what they were aiming for, or like might have been a rotator cuff thing. They didn't really have a good diagnosis at the time because it was hard to see Just with the x-ray. Yeah, once I got the MRI back, what they noticed was there was a hole in the actual bone.

Speaker 1: 5:38

Oh wow, the way that they explained it. I went to go see a sports orthopedic surgeon. He's like we see this a lot with pitchers in baseball or anyone who's doing that overhead motion a lot, but the sad thing was that they were like you're going to need a shoulder replacement. And I was 17 at the time, yeah, and I'm like I don't want to get a shoulder replacement. I'm 17 years old. That's insane.

Speaker 1: 6:02

And they were saying, yeah, like you won't be able to lift 10 pounds over your head after this, and I was like this sounds horrible, like what the?

Speaker 1: 6:07

heck, there has to be a different way. And then, luckily, we went to go talk to a doctor who was like he helped the diamondbacks and the sons and he was like a real sports doctor and he's like, honestly, that might be the case where we might have to go in and do a surgery. And the three other doctors we met prior to were like you're going to need it, Um, but this guy was like why don't we try physical therapy? Why don't?

Speaker 1: 6:34

we try other things in um, like acupuncture, and so I was like, yeah, let's try that. And so I did it for about three months, where I would go in for physical therapy three days a week. It was a lot.

Speaker 2: 6:44

Yeah, that's a lot.

Speaker 1: 6:47

But I couldn't train and so it felt like a lot of time was up in my schedule anyway, because Spencer may have told you about volleyball, but they were like four-hour practices and that kind of stuff it was a long time.

Speaker 1: 6:58

So I actually had a lot of time to go and do that, which I'm glad I did, and then would have acupuncture once a week and three months down the road, Um, we went and got another MRI and that same doctor who told me to do the therapy he's like this is unbelievable, but it's gone. Wow Like yeah. And they were worried about the cartilage mostly.

Speaker 2: 7:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:20

Cause that doesn't grow back Right Like typically cartilage is more tricky. Yeah, um, but like physical therapy saved my shoulder, yeah, cause otherwise, like I would have listened to the doctors and been like, okay, well let's get it done.

Speaker 1: 7:34

I guess, um, and I'm so glad I didn't. Um, and I've heard very similar stories to mine from other people who have gone in and just taken time to spend it with a therapist and and work through these issues together and hopefully heal the issue. Um, but it's a scary thing Cause, like, like you said, there's a time and place for for surgery and drugs and medicine and that kind of thing. But, um, yeah, like physical therapy is an avenue I don't think a lot of people check out first.

Speaker 2: 8:05

Yeah, I think part of it's that like surgery is just a quicker, it seems like a quicker option because it's just you go in right away, you do it.

Speaker 2: 8:14

I think. What a lot of people don't realize, though, is how long the recovery can be after surgery and how, sometimes, after surgery, you might not ever get the same function again. Yeah, um, but I think a lot of people now it's becoming more and more common to go with conservative treatment first, which is awesome because, especially when you're young and healthy, like you were, you have the potential to maybe recover and rehab some of those things and not need such an extensive procedure. Obviously, if you had been like 75 years, old.

Speaker 2: 8:46

They might've just told you to just go for the surgery right away, cause at that age you're not, you're not healing as quickly. There's a lot of processes that slow down, so you might not have had as good of a prognosis doing it that way. But for someone that's young and healthy, especially if you're not risking it getting a lot more worse over time, there's really no reason not to try conservative treatment first, and then, if it doesn't work, you can still do the same surgery, but at least you gave gave it a chance.

Speaker 1: 9:13

Yeah, and I think it's. I don't know the way that it should be, but um, what does that typically look like? Cause, there, there has to be a lot of like. Evaluation of the person right.

Speaker 1: 9:24

And like understanding what they're feeling. And, um, I'm sure you know I, when I sat down with the physical therapist it was like okay, well, what's your pain? And they did a lot of tests, like pushing on my wrist and stuff like that. So, um, like what, what does that look like with someone comes in with you know how I have a knee issue, or or that kind of thing. Like how do you start treating that?

Speaker 2: 9:44

Yeah. So kind of the cool thing I like too about physical therapy is you get usually you get a good amount of time with the patient. It's kind of different than some doctors where they only get 5 to 15 minutes with their patients and then their assistant or some other tech is doing the majority of the visit. A lot of places I've worked as the physical therapist you actually get like 45 minutes to an hour with that person, especially on the first visit. You kind of get an idea of the situation.

Speaker 2: 10:14

We call it like taking a history, so you can ask questions about how long have you had this pain, what makes it worse, what makes it better, how does it change throughout the day, and that.

Speaker 2: 10:24

That all seems kind of like not as important as the physical assessment, but a lot of times I can get majority of my information just from what someone tells me before I even put hands on them, just because certain pains and certain issues will behave a certain way.

Speaker 2: 10:39

So if you can get a picture of how it changes throughout the course of the day and how it's progressed over time, you can start to like cross off some things that, okay, it's probably not this, because it's not acting that way You're still going to double check with your physical exam but majority of the time, by the time people have finished telling me kind of their story, I get a good idea of what I think is going on. And then you use the physical assessment to kind of rule, rule in and rule out things. So we learn like special tests that you can do for certain things that will show you, like like for an ACL for example, there's a test called Lockman's that kind of shows you if there's laxity in that ligament or if it's really loose and that will tell you that they probably have something going on with their ACL Interesting and that will tell you that they?

Speaker 2: 11:24

probably have something going on with their ACL Interesting. But with ACL that's just a good example. There's also a lot of those subjective things like you'll get immediate swelling. You'll have this type of mechanism where you twisted when you landed or you got hit from a certain angle. So it's just kind of learning what are common characteristics of injuries and then knowing kind of how to rule those in and out. And then usually, at least in my initial sessions and the CIs in school that I worked with they always like to start trying treatments in that first session.

Speaker 2: 11:58

Really, Because, they wanted their patients to walk away feeling better than when they got there.

Speaker 1: 12:03

The eval is kind of known as like this is going to be a painful appointment because we have to do all these tests and figure out what's wrong.

Speaker 2: 12:10

I do remember that that was not fun. Yeah, it often is, but they most of my mentors still wanted to get at least some treatment in by the time that was over, just so that the patient walked away feeling like, okay, this is going to help me, it's not just going to make my pain worse, um. So a lot of times you'll trial some treatments, see if you can figure out something that might be helping it get better, and then you you give them a home exercise program to start working on. Um, and that's really where the recovery happens, cause you meet with the physical therapist those three days a week, but you were probably doing stuff at home all, yeah, all the time.

Speaker 1: 12:44

All the time. Like those wind or the wall, wiper things with the shoulder like you get a little towel.

Speaker 2: 12:49

And that's where it really, like, makes the difference. If you only did that stuff for an hour three times a week, you might see some difference, and some patients still do. But the patients that do the best are the ones that you could tell they were doing their stuff at home.

Speaker 1: 13:04

And they were bought in and they're like this is it? This is my reality. I got to get it done, Yep.

Speaker 2: 13:07

So that's kind of the process and then from there you just follow up as they get better. You just progress their exercises, make it challenging. You kind of want to find this sweet spot of I want to make it hard enough where it's a challenge, but not so hard that they're getting discouraged. And if you keep people in that area and then just progress them from there, eventually they get back to doing most of the things they want to do. Sometimes you can't do everything if people have really severe injuries, but for the most part a lot of people make good recoveries yeah that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 13:37

Have you seen a pretty cool recovery story where someone came in with an injury? They avoided surgery, or maybe not. Maybe they had surgery and got back to what they were doing.

Speaker 2: 13:47

Yeah, so I've worked in some different settings Um the. The business I have, that's at the gym, is more we've called like outpatient orthopedic. So it's more like your typical shoulder, knee pain, back pain, injuries. But I've also worked in a hospital where you do more inpatient rehab they call it so. Some of those people have had like strokes, traumatic brain injuries um major car crashes or accidents.

Speaker 2: 14:12

So when you ask that, my mind automatically jumps more to those, because those are just like the people that were in a coma with a ventilator and then they walk out of there on their last day and that's always really cool to see, um. But of course, in the other realm realm there's a lot of people I've seen that came in 10 out of 10 pain in their knee or their shoulder, could barely lift their arm, thought they would never get to do what they like to do again, and it takes time and there were sometimes setbacks and things. But I've definitely seen people where they can come all the way back and they can get back to running marathons, they can get back to lifting heavy weights, they can get back to all the things that they wanted to do, and I think that people I feel like it's most meaningful for tend to be older because, as you get older, your physical function dictates a lot of your independence, so it's always rewarding to see someone who comes in in like a wheelchair.

Speaker 2: 15:09

Even in the outpatient world I had some patients that had to come in in a wheelchair, but by the time they left therapy they were walking without a cane, without anything, and for them that was like I can play with my grandkids again, I can garden, I can do stuff that's meaningful and not just spend the rest of my life in a nursing home.

Speaker 1: 15:26

Yeah, that's that. That is amazing and like what's what's happening there Cause like if they're coming in a wheelchair and then you know able to walk out, is it a decrease in swelling or what is that?

Speaker 2: 15:37

I mean, that's probably part of it. It depends on what their condition was. Um, a lot of people it's just being more active and getting their body to move more. Um, the movement is medicine thing is truer. The older you get as well, cause, like I said, a lot of those processes that normally work really well when we're young start slowing down as we age. Um, you don't have as much, uh, muscle strength anymore. Your strength starts declining kind of proportionally to your age. You don't heal as quickly. Your skin is more fragile, so if you get a cut it's not going to close up as quickly. That's why older people tend to get wounds and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 16:18

I always have band-aids.

Speaker 2: 16:19

Yeah, that impacts your function a lot.

Speaker 2: 16:21

So just all of those processes start to slow down. But when you can move you bring blood flow to areas, you use those muscles, you gain strength in those areas and that helps kind of stall that process a little bit. So a lot of people too. I think a huge risk for older people is falls um and balance issues. So just getting more confident in their movement and feeling like they're more steady and just even just the repetition of it A lot of times it can, just it can be as much of a mental thing as a physical thing.

Speaker 2: 16:54

So being able to know this is how I get in and out of a chair, and I've done it a hundred times. Cause I do it every day. That way they just don't lose it and keep it up.

Speaker 1: 17:04

So yeah, I mean, I know there's. There's a lot of information coming out now of how things like strength training a higher protein diet like can help alleviate some of those those muscle losses and that kind of thing, or help um keep that muscle on longer. Um, is that like? Have you seen that before? Have you studied it a little bit?

Speaker 2: 17:25

Yeah, spencer, and I read a book, actually by Peter Atiyah.

Speaker 1: 17:29

He's a doctor that does a lot of longevity Um isn't his book called longevity?

Speaker 2: 17:34

Yeah, it's called I think it's called outlive, but like the caption longevity, but um, he explained it really like I really loved the way he talked about it. He kind of explained that for his patients. He'd ask them, like what their goals are and if they're, and he'd ask them, like what's your goal in 30 years?

Speaker 2: 17:52

like where do you want to be when you're 90? Um, and a lot of people would say like I want to be able to walk around the grocery store, I want to be able to put my suitcase in the overhead bin on an airplane so I can still travel. And so what he would do is he would say, okay, if you need to be able to lift a 20 pound suitcase over your head when you're 85, and we know that after the age of 40, every decade you're going to lose this percentage of strength He'd do the math and say, okay, if that's what you need to do when you're 85, and even with protein and all that stuff, you're still going to lose some strength by that point.

Speaker 2: 18:29

This is what you need to do right now when you're 50. And a lot of times it was. If you need to be able to lift 20 pounds at 85, you probably need to be able to lift closer to 70 pounds at 50. And so that would motivate people to see like it's not just doing what you want to be able to do right now, but it's even it's doing even more, so that as that steadily declines which you can do everything you want to prevent it you're still going to have a little bit of a decline, but if you can start higher up on the hill, you're going to decline more slowly. So I think that's one of the biggest things people need to know about, like longevity and presenting that decline is it's not just lifting the airplane bag right now.

Speaker 2: 19:13

You need to be lifting even more than that right now. That's why people need to like deadlift and squat, and it's not just about if you want to be a bodybuilder or Olympic weight lifter it's if you want to be that way when you're 90.

Speaker 1: 19:27

Functional. These are very functional movements. I've actually heard contradicting things on deadlifts and I don't know what to believe anymore. What's your take on deadlifts?

Speaker 2: 19:37

I like deadlifts.

Speaker 1: 19:38

Really yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:38

So most of my patients, even the really old little ladies with back pain, I will have them deadlift. We'll do some sort of modified version of it, um, but they'll. They'll deadlift. Uh, just because I think there's a big. There's a big misconception that if you have back pain, you should not move your back at all and that any type of back pain means that you did something to a disc or a vertebrae. Back pain is actually one of the things when we learn in school that has the most fear around it with patients.

Speaker 1: 20:11

I mean, it's debilitating. Yeah, my dad has had it for a long time. He's finally getting over it, but he's had compacted discs. Yeah, it's thrown him out a few times.

Speaker 2: 20:23

And it can be a real, real problem for some people. But there's also a lot of statistics um that when people go in and get an MRI it's going to show some arthritis or some they'll call it like joint degeneration in your spine. And when people hear that they think, oh my gosh, I like my spine's shot. But if you would x-ray or mri, like most of the adults in our country, most people would show the same things because that's just a natural part of the aging process. But most of those people don't have back pain, so part of it is cutting the tie between imaging doesn't always equal pain.

Speaker 2: 21:03

Um, there can be other reasons and you can have the bad images and not have pain and still function well. So deadlifts for me, I think it's you need to strengthen those muscles in the back. Um, and a lot of times when people have back back pain there's different categories, but a very common one we call movement coordination deficit, where it's not that you're necessarily weak, but your muscles that should be supporting your spine when you're lifting or bending or twisting. They're not turning on or firing, they're kind of taking a vacation. Um, and a lot of times, if we can retrain people on how to activate those muscles as they go through movements like a deadlift. If they'll do that, they'll have a lot less pain.

Speaker 1: 21:50

Yeah, so it's like common injuries in deadlifts. It's just like what are the most common ones? Are people like lifting with their backs more than their legs, or like yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:59

so my favorite cue for deadlifts is you should feel like you're pushing the floor away with your feet and that anytime I tell that to someone, you almost always see them immediately use their legs way more than their back. Whereas before they're kind of curling the bar up with their back. That was me in college.

Speaker 2: 22:18

And it's hard because like no one teaches you this in school or anything and people just start going to the gym in college and they see people doing it so they try to mimic it. Um, but it really it's kind of like in volleyball. Actually I didn't play high school volleyball but I remember in volleyball when they would talk about, like the pass yeah instead of swinging your arms, you're supposed to like use your legs like an elevator yeah that's kind of the same thing with the deadlift.

Speaker 2: 22:42

Your, your back is not really the part doing the lifting, it's supporting the load and you should be using your back for a deadlift, but the legs are the big movers in that movement and, like I know, it's like a a runner.

Speaker 1: 22:57

There's not a lot of runners who do deadlifts, but I do because I know it's like, it's like all the the hamstrings, the glutes, the like everything that you need in running. Um, so yeah, I don't know, I think it's like it's like all the the hamstrings, the glutes, the like everything that you need in running. Um so yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 23:08

I think it's a an interesting one, but I've heard so many people say like oh, don't do them, like it'll throw out your back and um I think, if you are worried about doing them because you're not sure if your form's good, I the biggest thing I tell people is just start on the lighter side really focus on form.

Speaker 2: 23:25

Um, and if you're really unsure, get a coach or a trainer or a friend that you know knows how to do it well and have them help you, um. But I think the mistake people make is they don't know if their form's good and they try to lift like 300 pounds and that's when you hurt your back.

Speaker 1: 23:41

Yeah, that was for sure Me and my brother. We're like how heavy can we go on?

Speaker 2: 23:45

this deadlift.

Speaker 1: 23:46

I think we got up to like 405, but he has a video of it somewhere and it's like my back is just arched. It's like oh, that is not good.

Speaker 2: 23:53

And it's hard because it seems safer than like a squat or an overhead lift, because you're like, if I can't do this, I'm just dropping it, going to land on anything. But at the same time it's still is a lift where you need to be careful with the angle of your spine and all that stuff. So I think people just sometimes go a little overboard without making sure they have the right technique.

Speaker 1: 24:12

Yeah, I think that's a huge one too is like, if you're worried about it, just go lighter.

Speaker 2: 24:16

Like um.

Speaker 1: 24:18

I think you know Jocko Willink is Spencer probably mentioned him before. But he always says like ego has no place in leadership and it has no place in the gym. Yeah, and it's like, yeah, like there might be people around you who are, you know, bench pressing um, you know way more than you. Like, I was at the gym the other day and this kid I don't want to call him out, but he was way lighter than I was- he was a skinny guy and he was doing two plates Like it was nothing and I was like how, how is this?

Speaker 1: 24:46

guy doing it, um, but he had no leg muscles, so that's my only, you know good job there.

Speaker 2: 24:52

Well, and that's the thing. If you're only doing stuff in the gym that makes you feel like you're unstoppable, then you're probably not doing it right. You should. You should kind of get humbled when you go to the gym, but kind of, like I talked about before, it's like that sweet spot of challenge versus success you don't want to be so humbled that you're like discouraged and not doing anything.

Speaker 2: 25:10

But um, like spencer would tell you, every time he goes he tries to do something that's just a little bit harder than what he can do otherwise. He feels like he didn't do enough, even if he killed the workout or something.

Speaker 1: 25:21

I mean that's great advice. Great advice too, yeah, yeah, it really is humbling.

Speaker 2: 25:26

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:27

Sometimes it's uh, you try and go out and you're like I'm feeling good today, and then it's like, nope, nevermind. Yeah, this is. I'm a lot weaker than I thought it was, um, but I did want to ask you and I asked you before um. We recorded this just about, like, if someone feels like they have an injury, kind of what, the protocol for that is like how much time to take off before seeing you know a physical therapist or even a doctor at that point, um, what do you advise on that?

Speaker 2: 25:53

I mean, it definitely depends on the injury and the extent of it. I think for most things, if it's just like I woke up one morning and I have this pain and it gets worse with this but better with this, um, there's a couple of things you can do. I, I would say, most of the time you kind of want to play that game of try to decrease some of the activity you've been doing. If you just started doing something that you haven't been doing regularly, and you've been doing it a lot, that's kind of a key sign of overuse. So dialing that back and seeing if it gets better, um. What you don't want to do, though, is you don't want to just go on bedrest either. That that won't usually work.

Speaker 1: 26:31

What's the danger there?

Speaker 2: 26:32

Just that, um, that movement is medicine key. If you, if you just become completely sedentary and you don't get any movement, your body's not going to recover either, because movement just brings blood flow to those areas, it flushes out toxins, it brings in nutrients, um, and your body isn't meant to just sit around, especially when it's injured. You still need to be moving. There is a place.

Speaker 2: 26:54

I mean, if you cut your leg in half, obviously you're going to have to take a rest day, but um there's there's still a difference between like, okay, take a day off the gym but still be active, still go on walks, Don't just sit on the couch all day. Um, most people I talked to that would come in and say like, oh, I tried to just take off two weeks and I just still don't feel great. Sometimes they'd even feel worse just because they get all stiff. You're not moving as much and that can make it worse. So I think you kind of play a game of dialing back some things, seeing if that helps, if it persists and especially if maybe it gets better, but then as soon as you try to ramp up again, it comes right back and you're you're in that spot.

Speaker 2: 27:37

I would just tell somebody to go see a physical therapist at that point. Um, utah is a cool state cause you don't have to have a referral to see a physical therapist, you can just have direct access. So you can just make an appointment with anybody and and get in Um and they won't tell you like, oh, you came too early. If I've had patients that will come in and they'll be like I have this knee pain but it's not hurting right now, but they it's almost like they wish it was so that they could show you, cause they're like I swear it hurts when I do this, but right now it feels great.

Speaker 1: 28:09

I mean that's probably a good sign, right, If it's like, yeah, not all the time.

Speaker 2: 28:13

And, like I said with that first part, even if it's not hurting them right now and all the tests we do don't show as much, I can still get a lot out of just what they tell me about the patterns and how it's been acting.

Speaker 2: 28:24

So I don't think it's ever a waste to go in, even if it's kind of this inconsistent thing. If anything, if you feel like it's limiting your function and limiting your ability to do things that you want to do, I'd say go in and get it taken care of sooner rather than later. There were so many people that would go through therapy and get better and they'd be like I wish I would have just done this in the first place a long time ago, rather than waiting weeks and weeks until it got really bad and then going in.

Speaker 1: 28:52

So yeah, no, I. I think that's that's great advice, like it's better to be safe than sorry. Yeah you hear it all the time, um, but I, I yeah, I don't know. I mean you can get paranoid, I feel like, especially in the beginning.

Speaker 2: 29:06

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:07

But it's a good point just being like, trying to be present with yourself and be like, okay, well, is this something that's continuing? Like, where's it coming from? Does it get worse with certain things? I think that's also something that's important is like, and the only way you're going to understand that is if you move your body.

Speaker 1: 29:23

Yeah, that's important is like, and the only way you're going to understand that is if you move your body and if you're like, you are continuing to try and stay active, whether it is walks, um, if it's a bike, like anything, just to get you moving a little bit, um well, and that is a good point of being able to differentiate.

Speaker 2: 29:37

Cause sometimes when I say if you started doing something and you have a pain, there is a difference between like pain that is related to an injury and just regular soreness from working out.

Speaker 1: 29:47

And.

Speaker 2: 29:47

I think some people have a like. It seems really simple to people that have worked out a lot and know what that feels like. But sometimes you have people that didn't do a ton of sports growing up, weren't super active, but then they get super into like running or swimming and all of a sudden they're doing all this and they're like my shoulder hurts and and maybe it is an injury.

Speaker 2: 30:08

But sometimes you discover that it's just they haven't ever been sore before and they're. They're feeling sore in places they've never felt sore. So that's when you kind of also pay attention to those patterns. And how long does it last? Does it get better or worse with movement? Normal soreness should go away within a day or two. Um, I mean, depending on what you did, it can be pretty intense. I remember after I ran my marathon, I couldn't even go downstairs.

Speaker 2: 30:35

I had to like go down sideways because I couldn't go down just because my legs were so like sore and stiff that I could not go down facing forward.

Speaker 2: 30:43

Um so like there's extreme cases of soreness but that went away within a couple of days. So if it goes away and then you don't really have it again, that kind of points more to soreness. If it persists and if you notice it, especially with some movements and not as much with others, that also is kind of a tell that. Okay, maybe this is something a little more worrisome than just regular soreness.

Speaker 1: 31:07

That's crazy. I, I, um, I do think about that a lot. Actually. It's like cause I'll have leg days that will be there for a couple of days and I'm like, man, that was a tough one and I just feel that soreness like deep in the quads or in the glutes or wherever it is. Um, and I can imagine, like if someone came into weightlifting and they're like hey, I'm just going to try leg day. I see all these people on Tik TOK doing squats. I'm going to try some squats.

Speaker 1: 31:31

If you've never done squats and it's like your first time, you're going to be really, really sore. It's like you might feel like you're injured, so that makes total sense and um, yeah, I didn't know, you ran a marathon.

Speaker 2: 31:43

Yeah, yeah, I ran it in college. Um, so I, like I said, I swam growing up. I was a long distance swimmer, so I swam like the 500, the 200, just freestyle, none of the other strokes, but um, but I and I did cross country one year in junior high, but I walked a lot.

Speaker 2: 32:00

I always would wait until the point of the race where my parents couldn't see me and I'd walk, um, just cause running wasn't my favorite thing. I wasn't very good at running at that point and I I didn't like that. It was just endless, and didn't I? A pool was easier cause you'd turn around and come back and I don't know why I just running wasn't really my thing for a long time. But college I had a friend, um, and it was funny cause I met her and this was like only the second time we hung out. But she asked me if I would run a half marathon with her and she was super into running. We both like to exercise and someone bailed on her. So I was like, you know, I I do CrossFit, I run sometimes. I've ran like five Ks before. I was like I think if I train for it I could do it.

Speaker 2: 32:46

And I called my mom, cause my mom's run half and full marathons and I was like, if I train, do you think I can run a marathon or a half marathon in like six weeks? And she's like, if you train, you should be fine. So, um, I trained, I just kind of gradually ramped up my training. I didn't do anything crazy. I still did CrossFit the other days because I didn't want to give that up. I wanted to keep doing that and but I actually ended up doing decently well, I feel like for my first half and I actually really enjoyed it. Like running kind of became just to get outside. I I liked getting outside. I I ran in silence. I didn't listen to music. Um, yeah, I just the music would throw me off, cause I would try to pace with it.

Speaker 1: 33:28

Like, I'll do that sometimes, but that's impressive, like, and sometimes running without headphones is is even harder, spencer doesn't like it.

Speaker 2: 33:36

He has to have one headphone, cause I like to talk when we run. So he just puts one headphone in so that he can still have music but then'll talk to me. Yeah, um, but I just I don't know at the time I I just felt like it was kind of therapeutic, I could get out and run, I didn't have to be on my phone and it was just kind of a break from school from being on my phone. Oh yeah, um, kind of. Maybe the reason I like it without music is because of the pool. You don't have music when you're underwater.

Speaker 3: 34:01

So I feel, like maybe that's part of it. Yeah, I can see that.

Speaker 2: 34:04

But I've really learned to like running almost more mentally than physically, Like it was just a nice activity. I didn't feel like I had to compete in it and swimming always feels kind of competitive for me. So when I go and swim again it's hard for me to not compare to what I used to do.

Speaker 2: 34:21

So running was kind of just a nice like break and I did um, so running was kind of just a nice like break and I did that half and it went well. So then I decided to do I'm trying to think of when it was, I think just a couple months later, that was in a fall, the next spring I was like I would love to just say that I ran a marathon, just as a bucket list thing, um, and I and I I played with it for a little bit. I started training and something happened where I can't remember. I didn't like the training or what. I had a bad run and I was like, okay, nevermind, I'm not doing this and then that happens to all the time.

Speaker 2: 34:56

Yeah, a month went by and it just kept coming to my mind and I was like you know what? I'm just going to train for it. I was going to be home that summer, not work. I didn't have much to do. I was like I'll just, I'll be home, I'll train and I'll just cross it off my bucket list. So I ran the one up in Logan, which was nice because it's pretty flat. It's just a nice trail.

Speaker 1: 35:17

Yeah, Logan's beautiful.

Speaker 2: 35:18

That's a good place to do it so, and that one went really well too. I hated training for it. I'll be honest, I don't like the long, like 16 mile runs. Oh yeah. I remember having one of those that just seemed endless and took me forever, and this guy on a bike passed me at one point and was just like how long have you been running? And I was just like way too long.

Speaker 1: 35:39

You're like don't ask me questions, man, come on, keep going Out. Don't ask me questions, man, come on, keep going. Just out in the middle of.

Speaker 2: 35:42

Wyoming, yeah so. But race day felt really good and I just I don't know what it was I always ran my races way faster than my training runs, Like my pace was like minutes faster than when I ran in training.

Speaker 1: 35:56

That's crazy.

Speaker 2: 35:56

Which I don't know why. I don't know if that's the right way to do it. Just the competitions in you and, I think, just the adrenaline and I think having people around me to pace with and then I also think just training that way really increased, like my endurance yeah um, because whenever I try to train fast in training runs, it just felt too too much like I feel like I'd redline.

Speaker 2: 36:19

So I feel like I just kind of built up a tolerance and then when I came to race day I felt like I could push and it just it went better.

Speaker 1: 36:25

Yeah, no, that's awesome. It's like, um, I hear this a lot in running and you can give me the science, if, if this is right but, that, like 80% of your runs, should be in in zone two just to build endurance. Um, which is Not that strenuous Zone 2 is. I don't know what the equivalent would be like on a bike or something else.

Speaker 2: 36:49

Spencer's been doing a lot of Zone 2. So he told me the other day I think it's you want your heart rate max, you want to be in the 68 to like 78% of your heart rate max. So it's based on heart rate which you can wear, Like he has a watch that will kind of show him what zone he's in so he knows where he stays. But yeah, it's kind of more based on heart rate and like effort than necessarily a pace. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:14

But I do. I didn't know that when I trained, but I do think that's true because I do feel like that just made my lungs like unstoppable, like I just felt like I could go for a long long time. Yeah, like unstoppable, Like I just felt like I could go for a long long time. Um, but yeah, and I think that's I. I'm not a running expert and I don't claim to be, but talking to people who do a lot of running and just with my little experience of running, but how well I was able to do those races I do feel like there's sometimes where people who run a lot might, um, mess that up a little bit, where they focus way too much on I have to do this many days in training.

Speaker 2: 37:49

I have to do all these speed intervals and all these paces and if I don't hit this pace, I'm not going to hit this pace in my race. Um, I like I had a friend who wanted to run a half and she was all stressed about her times and stuff and I was just like, honestly, I would just run for distance in your training runs, get the mileage under your belt and then just race on race day and you'll do great and that's that's kind of what I did. It probably is more complicated than that. If you're going to be like a true runner and I do think there's a place for the speed work and all that stuff, but I I don't feel like it's completely necessary to run like 20 miles five days a week. I think you can mix and match your training. I think adding variety to your training keeps you from getting injuries and kind of also helps you mentally not just get bogged down in the training.

Speaker 1: 38:39

Absolutely Like. You have to switch it up for me.

Speaker 1: 38:42

It's, it's very cause, it's a monotonous sport, like it's the same thing. You're just running, that's it. It's not going to change much. The only thing that will change is your speed, um, but when I qualified for Boston I I worked with a coach to to get that time and it really was like it was. Monday was an easy run, tuesday there was like three miles, but with speed work. Wednesday it was like another easy thing, and then it was pretty much like, and then Saturday was a long distance run. But she would always say, like, don't worry about your pace on it, um, just try and get the miles in and focus on building up that time to to get there. And um, yeah, to your point, like I don't think it needs to be all speed work.

Speaker 2: 39:25

I think it's important, but what I tell everyone I think like helped me get to that pace was was strength training and like mixing it up a little bit and um, and I kind of attribute that to it too, cause while I wasn't necessarily a runner and I didn't do a ton of running, I was very, very much in the gym a lot and I was doing like my typical week would be. I I'd still work out at the gym four to five days a week and I do a run on Tuesday, run on Thursday and then a long run on Saturday and Saturdays. I wouldn't always do the gym, but I do think that's part of why I was able to be so successful with so little running experience was because I had that, that foundation of like the, the strength training, like you said.

Speaker 1: 40:08

Yeah, and I I mean I'm very blessed and fortunate I haven't had like a serious injury, Like I've had things come up like oh man, my ankle hurts for a while, but then, like you said, just take some time off, and um. But I think a lot of it is because of strength training and and it makes sense to me because all my favorite ultra marathon athletes they all talk about how important strength training is.

Speaker 1: 40:30

Like this guy who I love, I won't actually mention him. I mention him all the time on this podcast, so I'll say another one Sally McRae. Okay. She's like one of the best female ultra marathoners.

Speaker 2: 40:41

I think Allie told me about her. Yeah, she's unbelievable.

Speaker 1: 40:45

And, like she's done, like two 50 races like those crazy ones. But she always talks about the importance of strength training and she has a program where she teaches runners how to strength train. Um, and I think it's pretty cool because I don't know what the science is behind it, but I assume it's like you're building up the muscles to help just provide a better support.

Speaker 2: 41:06

Yeah, yeah, I mean, if you think about running, it's just like you said, it's a very repetitive activity. If you think about, like the biomechanics of what your muscles and joints are doing, they're just doing the same motion over and over again, which does build muscle over time, but running doesn't require as much force. You kind of get into a rhythm and I've heard some people actually even call it like it's kind of a controlled falling, step after step.

Speaker 2: 41:33

Like you kind of also use momentum to your advantage when you're running, so a lot of your muscles aren't necessarily like contracting as much force as they are when you're trying to do like a deadlift or a squat, and so I think that's part of it is when you pair those together you get the force generation that you need to then go out and run mile after mile, and that muscle can handle it more because it's also trained how to get that force output. I also think the human body is built to kind of go with the path of least resistance. Unfortunately, and a lot of times especially, certain muscles are going to find a way to piggyback off of other muscles or not pull their weight. But if you train them in the gym and you get them used to, you need to activate at this time and this is how we get you to fire.

Speaker 2: 42:26

They're more likely to kind of have that muscle memory when you go to do something like running. So, like a lot of people, for with running we talked about this upstairs but it's hips, um, and even just even in older people, like people I've worked with in the hospital a lot of times, if people struggle with just walking, a lot of it is like glute or hip weakness, just because those muscles are supposed to help with your posture. They're supposed to help with swinging your leg forward and helping with the momentum. And those muscles are some of the ones that, if they don't have to do the work, if they can kind of piggyback off of your quads or hamstring they'll turn off and they'll start to do less and less.

Speaker 2: 43:07

they'll turn off, um, and they'll start to do less and less. So a lot of the movements in the gym the deadlifts, the squats and all the kind of niche accessory movements that you can do to get the hips working yeah, and just get that to be more muscle memory, then when you go out and run, it's already kind of turned on, it's already ready to go, and they'll, they'll, stay active longer.

Speaker 1: 43:23

That's that makes a lot of sense. It's almost like you're doing endurance training on those small muscles or getting them ready for it. But, yeah, I think running has gotten a lot of popularity, I think recently, yeah, but I've also seen a lot of people get more injured and I think it's just they're trying to go out too fast or do like you said, like, oh, I'm going to do, you know, 20 miles within five days, or whatever that number is Because you know, they saw someone else on social media doing it and they're like hey, I can do it too.

Speaker 2: 43:57

Well, and it's such a simple exercise, you're just running. You don't have to learn. You should, but you don't always have to learn a technique or a form, you just can go out and run. But I think you're right. I think a lot of people underestimate how much it can take a toll on your body.

Speaker 1: 44:13

Yeah, I think comparison is dangerous too, like um, especially when you talk about your own physical body. It has its own limits, it it? It's where it is right now, like before you start working on it, that kind of thing, like I had something the other day. There's this, this guy, his name's Truett Haynes which is actually Cameron Haynes' son. Okay, but he is just an unbelievable runner. Like the guy will run. He ran the Boston marathon in jeans.

Speaker 2: 44:39

Oh my gosh, and I think he got like a 236.

Speaker 1: 44:42

So he's like so fast. This guy is crazy In jeans. In jeans, yeah, that's his thing is like he'll do it in jeans. He just actually ran big Cottonwood the half marathon. He did it in an hour and nine minutes in jeans.

Speaker 2: 44:52

Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 1: 44:53

Just insane. So he's like he's crazy fast and I'm like how is he doing this? I'm pushing myself so hard and this guy's just out there Like I have much longer legs than him, like I should have that advantage, right, um. But then he put something up where he's like I ran my first half marathon when I was six years old and I'm like okay, so you've been doing it your entire life.

Speaker 1: 45:15

Like you have these muscles developed like you're in that zone, and then your body's adapted to it. Um, but I think there's a lot of danger in comparison. I think there's a lot of danger in comparison.

Speaker 2: 45:29

I think, especially in sports or physical activity, because I think you see the highlights. So you see, like the cool stuff that people are doing but nobody posts, like the boring kind of accessory workout, I mean, some people do but a lot of people don't post those on social media or don't talk about those as much. So it looks like that they're just going out and running and it's no issue and they can do it all day long.

Speaker 2: 45:49

but I guarantee he's done a lot of work in the kind of behind the scenes to make that happen and, like you said, just having the years under your belt cause people all the time will assume that they can just jump into something and it should be quick to get there, and some people have some good luck and can jump in and can take off, but a lot, of, a lot of sports if you want to be really good and really competitive in them especially nowadays where there's so much technology and stuff you can do to be so good, Um, it's a lot harder to be really really good

Speaker 2: 46:24

if you don't have that much experience. So I think, having the years of training under your belt and just learning, you learn a lot about form, you learn a lot about, um, nutrition and recovery and sleep and all the things that help with that, that rookies sometimes don't even have any idea about.

Speaker 1: 46:42

That's true, like um. I also see him like taking saunas and ice baths and like stuff like that to help with recovery. And it just makes sense, like he's, he's figured out his formula and that kind of thing. But, um, yeah, you, you mentioned like the, the I guess you can call them like the unsexy movements, where it's like the in the gym, the mobility stuff um, which I assume is like what you're doing on the physical therapy side a lot yeah um.

Speaker 1: 47:08

So if someone comes in with like, let's just say, a knee injury, what are like the, the boring movements that are, you know, critical for recovery or or whatever.

Speaker 2: 47:18

I might be just yeah, no, that are good to do. Yeah, so the cool thing about physical therapy is it's always going to be specific to that person. But most people I see with knee pain or knee problems oftentimes we need to work on their hips in some way or another, especially hip. We call them abductors, the muscles that kind of help bring your legs out.

Speaker 2: 47:39

Um, and those are. They're kind of deep to your gluteus maximus, so they're your gluteus medius, your gluteus minimus, and then there's some other ones too, but um, yeah, how many muscles are in the glutes?

Speaker 1: 47:50

There's a ton.

Speaker 2: 47:51

There's a lot there's, I don't even know how many. There's at least like three to five of the big known ones, and there's a lot of other little ones. It depends on what you call the glute, but um, cause they can stretch down into the leg and stuff too. But there are quite a few little muscles in there that all do different things and a lot of them have to coordinate together. So, again, if one of them doesn't want to pitch in, it can stress the other ones and it can kind of cause some overuse on the other ones. So getting all of them to help each other and to work together is one of the things that you work on with a physical therapist. Work together is one of the things that you work on with a physical therapist. Um, but, that being said, with people with knee pain, we work a lot on hips. Um, a really basic one. If people have really severe pain and really severe hip weakness is just trying to push your legs out against a belt or something like just those isometrics.

Speaker 2: 48:42

Um, that's what a lot of times what we'll start with with people. Again, usually that's very low level. If you're working with like a high level athlete, you're probably going to rig up some more complicated exercise that is more challenging.

Speaker 2: 48:55

Yeah, a belt works too, and that's the cool thing is, in school it's funny they don't actually like we don't have a class that's like, if somebody has this, do this exercise.

Speaker 2: 49:06

Um, in fact, some of my classmates I remember being kind of frustrated because they were like I don't have a background in training, I'm not super familiar with exercises and I expected them to give us like a list of like, do this for this, and so a lot of them had to kind of learn how to come up with exercises Um, so that, and so a lot of them had to kind of learn how to come up with exercises Interesting. So that's what's kind of cool too is you'll see some therapists that have their favorites that they use with a lot of patients and just kind of the name of the game, because you don't want to create a new one for everyone, you see. But a lot of times your PT will be like tailoring something to what they see you doing. So if I have someone that's, I'm noticing they have a hip weakness thing, but then they also play a very dynamic sport like soccer or something where they're moving around a lot.

Speaker 2: 49:55

I'll put them on like a BOSU ball while they do that exercise to give them that wobble and to practice being able to steady themselves while they're working on that, so that it mimics like that muscle doesn't just need to be able to do this when you're standing. It needs to be able to do this when you're running and weaving with a ball.

Speaker 1: 50:11

Um it's crazy. The Bosu balls, that's probably a good call. Yeah, Balance and stuff man.

Speaker 2: 50:15

You can use that in a lot of ways. It's pretty fun.

Speaker 1: 50:17

Yeah, that's tough.

Speaker 2: 50:18

But um, but no knee pain. Honestly, hip stuff is is a lot of what I do with knee and you can do a lot of ankle stuff too, and a lot of it is doing exercises that a lot of people have done, but giving the right cues to do them correctly and working on technique with those you were talking about the anterior tib raises.

Speaker 1: 50:38

Yeah, that one was great. I saw that from Knees Over Toes guy. Yeah, those are a good one. And all I did was I put a kettlebell on the tip of my foot, yep, and then just started raising it up.

Speaker 2: 50:48

Lifting it.

Speaker 1: 50:48

It's amazing how fatigued those get. Yeah, it's so fast.

Speaker 2: 50:53

But it's important. That muscle is supposed to lift. I can't remember the percent, but it's like some portion of your body or it's like a certain amount times your body weight. Like that muscle is supposed to lift a lot of weight, so you're supposed to train those pretty hard and a lot of people don't go to the gym and do toe raises.

Speaker 1: 51:12

It's pretty boring, I mean like you're not going to look cool doing it. No, it's not like a bicep curl. Yeah, guns aren't out, but what does that muscle do Like? Is it on the launch or is it kind?

Speaker 2: 51:22

of yeah.

Speaker 2: 51:23

So that muscle it's called dorsiflexion is what it helps with, and it's basically the motion of bringing your toes up towards you. But anytime you're walking, running, there's certain points of the gait cycle or when you're the cycle and you're running, that your toes need to come up and clear the ground. That muscle is also acting eccentrically when you're pushing off the ground. So it's not the muscle that's contracting when you're pushing off, because that's the opposite one, yeah, but it is kind of gradually letting that go. So when you're running, there's a lot of muscles that work together in pairs while one's firing the others, slowly lengthening um. So a lot of what you'll do in pt2 is eccentrics. I think those are used a ton and it's just moving slowly so that you can train that muscle how to move under a load. But you kind of slow it down to give it time to really do it in the right way and in the right path. Um, cause that gives you more stability, control when you go to do it faster.

Speaker 1: 52:22

Yeah, Cause we were. We were talking a little bit upstairs about that with the squats eccentric squats, is that what you call them. What's the benefit of that? Just like explaining what it does and how it helps you with, like finding the form and that kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 52:35

Yeah, so eccentric just means you're slowly lengthening, instead of concentric means you're contracting. Eccentric is the opposite it's lengthening. So when you do like tempo squats or movements like that, you're lengthening it very slowly. And as you're doing that, if you think about like a rubber band stretching, yeah, it's kind of like you're stretching that rubber band out with a load on it so you're getting it to really move, but under tension and under load and then tears happen during that time, like yeah, it breaks down the muscle and then the hope is that it builds it back stronger.

Speaker 2: 53:09

So, like a lot of times, if somebody wants to get a pull-up and they are not quite strong enough to lift up their body weight yet, you'll have them do like negative pull-ups is what you call it and those are just eccentric. Honestly, anytime you want to train a muscle to be stronger concentrically, training it eccentrically is a good way to go. You just have to be careful. You can overdo that. A lot of people can get like really, really sore doing a ton of eccentrics and you want to be careful with the load because you are going slower and you are lengthening, just like with that rubber band. If you go too heavy it's going to snap on you.

Speaker 2: 53:48

So you kind of have to play the game of how many reps and how much load to do, Otherwise you could end up with rhabdo or something like that.

Speaker 1: 53:56

Yeah, rhabdo or a torn pec. Yeah, when my brother and I were getting really into lifting in college, one of our friends was like oh well, if you can't get a lot on the bench, just do like. He called him deficits like, just like bench deficits Like you're just, you just pull it down and then he pretty much helps you lift it up and then go down again, Um, and like we didn't know anything we were doing, but luckily it didn't get injured.

Speaker 1: 54:20

Um, but yeah, I've, I've seen people who tear pecs from doing that kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 54:24

It's just like it's a big load Like you gotta be careful. Yeah, and if you want to do those, you just do them with less weight. Um, and it's, it's still effective. You're just doing there's a there's a protocol called heavy slow resistance and it's supposed to be enough weight that, like you feel it, you only have a couple of reps left in the tank by the end. But it shouldn't be so much that you're getting that point where you're going to pull something, pop something scary, yeah, um, but yeah, I, I mean.

Speaker 1: 54:51

One thing that you've mentioned a couple of times is recovery, and that's a big focus for me because I want to be an athlete and I know you and Spencer both, like, do a lot of recovery, um, but for me, like, I don't think I truly understand what recovery is, like I know stretching helps, but I don't know if, like, I'm overdoing stretching or what that is, um. But yeah, I mean, sleep is important too. I know food is important, but, um, yeah, let's talk about recovery for a second. Like what are the, what are the important things to hit and what does it look like?

Speaker 2: 55:28

Yeah, I think the first thing is some of the things you touched on. Um, cause, majority of recovery is happening inside the body, not outside. So I think biggest things I think of first off is nutrition and sleep. Um, stretching is great. There's a lot of recovery movements that are great, but if you're not getting enough sleep and you're not like fueling right, they're not really going to make as much of a dent. Um sleep is honestly the biggest thing. That's what it's designed for I know nobody likes that answer.

Speaker 2: 56:01

But think about like if you don't have a good night's sleep, even if you eat the best meals and you move the best you can, you still don't feel quite a hundred percent. So, sleep really trumps a lot of it. That being said, sometimes I mean with us, with a kid, sometimes you can't do much with sleep.

Speaker 2: 56:19

Um. So there are ways to kind of supplement it, but I do think sleep's a big one, and and it's not just the amount of sleep you're getting, but it's just a consistent sleep routine, because there's some people that only need six, seven hours. There's some people that work out so much and do so much training they need closer to nine or 10 hours. But I think the key is that it's consistent.

Speaker 2: 56:44

I think, if you're going to bed at a different time every night, waking up at a different time every morning, your body never has a routine. It's hard for your body to know what to expect and to know when. When are we recovering? When do we need to be ready to?

Speaker 1: 56:55

go, so it adapts to that.

Speaker 2: 56:57

Yeah, so a lot of people. When they talk about sleep, we'll talk about establishing a consistent wake and sleep time. And it's hard with our day when you go to work at different times and different days, or there's days where people are at home or they're at work, or they work out in the morning or in the evening. But, as best you can, trying to keep it within 30 minutes every day really helps. Just cue your body. Okay, now it's time to go to sleep, because some people will will get to bed early, but then they they won't fall asleep for a while and they have trouble.

Speaker 2: 57:30

So the best that you can is just setting yourself up to so what, so that your body knows, okay, now it's time to sleep and now it's time to wake up, um, and then that becomes more consistent and your body becomes more efficient at using the time that you do have to sleep efficiently. So that's the biggest thing, I think, is sleep, and there's lots of things you can do to make that better. And then nutrition. I think, depending on what, you're not feeling enough that training's.

Speaker 2: 58:05

some of that training is going to go to waste a little bit, because your body's going to put energy to what it needs. And if you're training that much but you don't even have enough calories to just support just being here, um you're that training isn't going to get supported the way it needs to, so you're not going to recover as fastly, as quickly that those calories are going to go to your major organs and your um, your more vital parts of your body than the little tiny muscles that you may have been working on.

Speaker 1: 58:34

So is there a macro focus that you try and get with, like nutrition Is it? Is it like a split between carbs, fat and protein, like a percentage, wise, or?

Speaker 2: 58:44

I think it depends on the person there's. I don't think there's a one size fits all for nutrition yeah, that's unfortunately I think a lot of it depends on your training as a baseline. If you're not like a professional athlete, if you're not doing a crazy training, if you're just kind of doing a consistent routine. Yeah, most people like spencer said when he was on um, if you can get the one gram of protein per pound of body weight, that's usually pretty good.

Speaker 2: 59:09

If you're doing a lot more, though, you might even need more than that to build muscle mass. And then carbs are hard, because they kind of get a bad rap and a lot of people want to be low carb. But if you're especially if you're a long distance athlete or an endurance athlete, you do need a lot of carbs just to support.

Speaker 1: 59:28

That's how I used to be before. I was like I've heard so much crap about carbs, which is like it makes me sad now, because now I'm on the other side of it.

Speaker 2: 59:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 59:36

Where before I avoided them and my training, suffered and like I would always be sore, I would never recover well, and now I'm on the other side where I'm like, oh no, I need them.

Speaker 2: 59:46

You want all of them. They are part of my daily routine.

Speaker 1: 59:50

Um, and yeah, it's just it's.

Speaker 2: 59:53

It's interesting and I know people think like, oh well, carbs are what make you fat and it's like calories over over calories is what makes you fat, but well, and it depends on the.

Speaker 2: 1:00:03

you also want to look at the quality because if you're getting all your carbs from donuts, then yeah, you probably need to change it a little bit, but if you're getting it from vegetables and fruits, um, and like more complex carbs and potatoes, that kind of thing, you're probably doing better that way. So I think that's also another thing to look at is not just how much you're eating and what you're eating, but are like what macros you're eating but, what specifically you are eating.

Speaker 2: 1:00:32

as far as the quality of food, the more your food can be whole foods based instead of processed, the better you're going to feel in general. I mean, anybody knows, if you eat a bunch of candy on Halloween, you wake up and you don't feel good.

Speaker 1: 1:00:47

You feel terrible.

Speaker 2: 1:00:48

If you're trying to train with that, you're not going to feel it at your best, so you want to eat what makes you feel good. Um, that being said, there are some high level athletes that will eat a candy bar right before, cause they need that quick glucose.

Speaker 1: 1:01:01

I mean same thing with like marathoners. It's like people are like hey, you can take gels and stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:01:06

But if you look at it, it's just like gels, are just sugar.

Speaker 1: 1:01:09

It's like people eat candy all the time.

Speaker 2: 1:01:11

And I think that's where it's hard too, because you see the really high level people doing that. And it doesn't seem to affect them negatively. But then you see people running 5Ks that think, oh, I need all the gels and the fancy stuff, and so you do have to look at like, for some people you really don't need that. If you're doing that level of training for the really high level stuff, you probably could could use some of that.

Speaker 1: 1:01:34

Yeah, that's a hundred percent true. Like I don't know I'll, I'll be on trail runs and now it's like trail running season because Allie and I and my brother actually were training for an ultra marathon in in. Allie and I and my brother actually were training for an ultra marathon in October. Yeah, and that's just like. You just need fuel at that point because you're going up elevation and you have super long distances and it doesn't really matter. Like I remember my last ultra marathon I had people were handing out like quesadillas and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and just like random stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:02:01

Well, and even like a whole banana on mile 14 of my marathon really yeah, like I, I was at the point where I I mean it was. It was where you start at like 6 am. So I didn't really eat a huge breakfast before, because I don't like running on a full stomach.

Speaker 1: 1:02:16

But I got to that point in the race where I was like I need, I need stuff in me, so I ate a whole banana, that whole month, like I I portioned it out throughout the mile, but yeah, I always have a hard time like chewing things when I'm running. So that's, that's impressive. I give you kudos there.

Speaker 2: 1:02:31

But but yeah, I agree, I think if you're doing something really long like that, you do need the, the fuel, and you need to. You need to look at food not so much as like a calorie thing, or I want to look this way, much as like a calorie thing, or I want to look this way.

Speaker 2: 1:02:46

so I need to eat this diet you need to look at it more as fuel to support your training and your recovery. So, um, it's not just what you're eating during races, it's also what you're eating leading up to and after races. And if, if you're trying to be very specific with that, you probably should see like a nutritionist or someone that can give you a breakdown because, like I said, it's different for everybody.

Speaker 2: 1:03:04

It really depends on your volume of training, how much you're doing, but in general, if you can follow those guidelines of get enough, enough protein, get enough carbs to support what you're doing, stick to whole foods.

Speaker 1: 1:03:17

Um, and water too, Like hydration a lot of water. Yep Um electrolytes like electrolytes like that kind of stuff and, um yeah, creatine spencer talked about that last time. Yeah, still taking 10 grams, so good going, well um and I think there's.

Speaker 2: 1:03:31

There's some of that too, though, where people want to get really specific with all the supplements, yeah, but then you look at, like their normal diet and they're not eating enough protein.

Speaker 1: 1:03:40

They're eating donuts and chips and yeah there's no fruits and veggies or anything, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:03:44

So I would say, before you get really micro, you need to first focus on the macro, because those aren't going to really make a dent if your overall diet isn't dialed in. Um. That being said, people are human.

Speaker 2: 1:03:56

You can still enjoy birthday cake every once in a while and stuff like that. But, um, you kind of just like the sleep thing, you want it to be consistent. So you want most days, 90% of the time you're eating, this way and that your body just gets used to that, Because your body will take time to adapt. It's not just eat good one day and feel great, it takes a little bit.

Speaker 1: 1:04:17

The human body is amazing, though. I mean, everything we're talking about today is like it adapts over time to the different things, and it can adapt to bad training styles and then prevent or give you injuries, or, like you can train in a good way and prevent some and, um, if things do happen, then now you have tools in your tool belt to take care of it. It's just all you know. Going through the journey yourself and, um, I always say how, like, getting after it's going to be a different experience for everyone. It's just like with fitness, like it will look different for every single person.

Speaker 1: 1:04:46

Um, like my mom and I were talking and she's like I ran three and a half miles today and she's, oh, she's going to get mad at me for this one, but I think she's 56. Um and like she didn't run a year and a half ago, and so seeing her now where she's at three and a half miles is like that's awesome. That's huge improvement. And um, it's all, it's all relative.

Speaker 1: 1:05:10

Like your heart is going to be relative to whatever it is. That's difficult for you, Um, but doing it in a smart way and a slow like, don't just go right out the gun right away. Like I know, it's exciting because like my brother and I in college like we were excited about weightlifting and we just wanted to keep going up in weight. But um, I think it's much more, um, it's a much more better path to to take the slow and steady path rather than the I'm just going to go into it and maybe get injured Like you just don't know.

Speaker 2: 1:05:43

Well, and even when you're recovering from an injury, you have to be okay with the fact that it's going to take time. And, like you said, there's people that previously were doing a lot more and then kind of have to take time off for a while and rehab. But then they start to get excited at those little wins even though they used to do a lot more in three miles than anything compared to what they were doing before, but it's cool to see when, even though, they used to do a lot more, and three miles isn't anything compared to what they were doing before.

Speaker 2: 1:06:05

But, um, it's cool to see when that starts becoming exciting and they get closer and closer to getting back. But I do think having that mindset of taking time and being okay with it being a process and not an instantaneous thing is really important.

Speaker 1: 1:06:18

Do you have to, like, do you ever have to talk to people about that, Like who they? Just I don't know Either. It is like for me. I know I feel bad about myself if I'm not hitting my training program or like something's up, Um, and I can imagine athletes who come in feel the same way.

Speaker 2: 1:06:34

Yeah, no, that's a big thing. Um, usually on that first day, we'll talk about goals and kind of expectations, cause there's some people who think they're going to walk in and you're going to fix them and they're going to walk out and do what they want to do, and sometimes you can. I have had like one or two patients where it was a really simple fix and they were fine the next day. I wish all of them were that easy, but they're not. So a lot of times you do have to kind of adjust expectations and let them know, based on how they're presenting, what their prognosis looks like, and you, you always have to be careful, though, cause if you give people exact timelines.

Speaker 1: 1:07:11

They're going to hold you to that.

Speaker 2: 1:07:12

If 12 weeks go by and they're not where you said they would be, they're not. They're not happy you lied to me.

Speaker 2: 1:07:16

Yeah. So giving them a realistic timeline but still making it general enough to where, if there's wiggle room, there's wiggle room, um, but then with the goals, I think, just just giving them hope that they will get there. They just have to be okay with it being a process. And then I think it's just important, on the follow-ups, just highlighting those wins. A lot of a lot of patients will be like I barely did anything and I'll be like well, you did this and you couldn't do this on the first day. And you just have to help them kind of see those as wins and see those as steps in the right direction. Just like with anything else in life, if you kind of get fixed on the goal but forget kind of the stepstones to get there, you're going to get really discouraged and really down. So being able to see those as little wins in order order to get to the big one, um, helps people stay a little bit better mentally.

Speaker 1: 1:08:08

That makes sense and I always tell people, like, progress is progress, no matter how small. And um, like, if you're ever struggling with training or if it's recovery, like just be proud of the small wins, because that means you're getting better, you're moving in the right direction and there is, you know, hope that you will, you know, hopefully take off and get healed and maybe be able to do what you used to be able to. But, you know, maybe not, and be okay with it, but progress is progress. And yeah, I think that's huge and that was a question more for me, because I feel like I would be in that boat. A lot of people are.

Speaker 2: 1:08:43

I would be, I am too. I I'm kind of like you. I luckily I've never had to have like a super serious injury. I've sprained an ankle. Funnily enough, most of them were in PT school. Um, yeah, I sprained an ankle. I hurt my shoulder for a little bit, but not nothing like major surgery or anything. Um, but I did. My brother did have quite a few injuries in high school. He had all this stuff in his knees. He was on crutches for a long time.

Speaker 2: 1:09:08

Um, but it's cool because he now, I think, is one of the most resilient people I know and I think a lot of that came out of that experience out of just having to be patient and like not be able to do everything you want to do right now, but be happy with what he could do and he, he also just didn't let that deter him from still trying to do everything you want to do right now, but be happy with what he could do and he, he also just didn't let that deter him from still trying to do what he wanted to do.

Speaker 2: 1:09:30

Yeah, I think sometimes people, as soon as they hit the wall, they just want to turn around and not try anymore and take a different path which might be the case for some people, but in general I think if you want to keep going after what you want, you just have to be okay with sometimes it takes a little bit longer.

Speaker 1: 1:09:47

Yeah, and I love what you just said about resiliency and I actually want to ask you about that, because that's the name of your guys' physical therapy clinic. So how did you guys come up with Resilient?

Speaker 2: 1:09:59

So when I got interviewed to go to the? U for PT school, one of the questions in my interview.

Speaker 2: 1:10:05

That they asked me was how would you define resilience? And I don't know why that kind of stuck with me. I have always liked that word because I feel like that word can be applied to a lot of different scenarios. It can be applied to like fitness. It can be applied to like spiritual type things. It can be applied to just your overall aspect or outlook on life. Spencer's always really liked that word too and I just like when I was thinking about what I wanted my physical therapy business to be called, I wanted to somehow tie in that when you take time to work on yourself physically and get better functionally, your whole life kind of benefits from it.

Speaker 2: 1:10:49

If you know anyone that's super sick or really debilitated with an illness or an injury, it affects every aspect of their life. They can't go to the bathroom by themselves, they can't like it really limits how much they can enjoy their life and not that that's everything Like there's. There are people that have lifelong illnesses or injuries that still find a way to live happy, bright lives and make a difference in the world, and they are awesome, incredible people that have a lot of resilience. Um, but I think it's cool that when you work with people and you help them make changes in their function, even the littlest changes can make a huge difference in the quality of life that they have and just make them better people too. Like I said, watching my brother go through that that made him a better person having to go through that experience. So I just wanted it to reflect that going through rehab or therapy doesn't have to be a negative thing in your life it can actually make you come out stronger and better than when you started yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1: 1:11:53

That's such a good name. And resilience is it? It's, it's huge Like, not just in fitness but in life in general like. I'm sure when you were going through school with Christian and, and you know that was like I gotta be as resilient as I can be, Um, cause there's going to be days when I don't sleep and I got to still bounce back and be better tomorrow.

Speaker 1: 1:12:13

And um, I'm sure that helped make you into who you are today. And, um, I can say the same thing about like experiences in my life, Cause you mentioned like having a debilitating illness and I wasn't in like a terrible, um physical state where I couldn't do or I could still do the things I needed to in life, but I was like 135 pounds and I was really sick, Um, but that's helped me recognize that like, oh, I know what it's like to be on that side. I'm going to be able, I'm going to try and do my best to to live life to the fullest, because I know what it's like to not be able to.

Speaker 2: 1:12:46

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:12:47

Um, and I feel like that's taught me a little bit of resiliency too. And um, I just I love that word. It's like you're going to come back and you're going to come back stronger.

Speaker 2: 1:12:58

Yep, that's icing on the cake right there. Yeah, it's awesome Because that's the goal most times in therapy and sometimes you don't always get there. Sometimes people never quite get back to where they were, but a lot of times if we could get someone even stronger than before they got injured or hurt, that was an awesome achievement.

Speaker 1: 1:13:20

Then they feel really confident that not only did I fix this, but it's not going to happen to me again. Um and I've heard that actually does happen, Like when you go through an injury, the body builds it back stronger. I know, obviously bones are like the easiest example, like they grow back stronger, um, but is that the same with, like tendons, ligaments, um, that kind of thing? Is it because you're building the muscles around it, or is that?

Speaker 2: 1:13:40

So I think it depends there are. When you have, like a tendon or a ligament injury, it is actually sometimes at a higher risk of re-injury just because it's already been injured once.

Speaker 2: 1:13:51

So I don't know if it's exactly like bones, but I do think, because you're doing tailored, specific exercises that most people probably won't weren't doing before, if they continue to be consistent with those and they've learned how to move and how to how to do things the right way, I think all that supporting stuff is what makes them a little bit stronger and more resistant to getting injured again. Um, again, there is a re-injury rate when you've had that before, just cause it's it's already happened once. But in general, I feel like people that really take the time to take it seriously and to rehab really well can come out of it with more strength than they had before. Um, and just more wisdom and like knowing how to move, knowing what they can take and when they need to be a little bit more cautious. Um, I think most injuries sometimes happen just cause you didn't know exactly what you were doing and got kind of taken out or just a freak accident.

Speaker 2: 1:14:49

And. But then you know to be more careful or to avoid certain things in the future.

Speaker 1: 1:14:52

So I think that's great. Yeah, where do you want to see the clinic go? Yeah, or what's the dream, I guess?

Speaker 2: 1:15:02

The dream is kind of with Spencer as well. I think eventually we'd love to work together. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:15:09

The field of medicine that he wants to go into is very similar to physical therapy and they work a lot with physical therapists. So we've always I mean that's how we met was at the gym. Um, we've always. And then we had all of our exercise science classes together in college, so we've always really connected on like loving the human body and how fitness helps people. Um, so I I definitely think we both see ourselves eventually when we're older and our kids are older, and we can work together, working together and just helping people. I think including a gym in that somehow would be really cool. But yeah, that's kind of the long-term goal. Is it turning into not just a physical therapy but a medical side of it for him too, and just an overall like health and wellness set up?

Speaker 1: 1:15:59

Yeah Well, I love that Cause.

Speaker 1: 1:16:01

Like I don't know, I feel like the world kind of needs more of it honestly because, like we were talking about in the beginning, doctors and you know not to shy on them, but they are a little bit more amped to be like, hey, well, let's go under the knife, kind of thing. There's a lot that can be done before going that route, and my dad always says this. He's like once you go under surgery, it'll never be the same and sometimes it's better. I'm not going to shoot down surgery all the time but, um, like, sometimes it's necessary but there's a lot that can be done to prevent, to strengthen and to treat injuries when, when they do happen.

Speaker 1: 1:16:42

Um like my wife, like great example she's going through some knee injuries right now and, um, you're giving her some exercises to do and, um, you know it's very early on. So, like you know, we we won't really know, but I assume like, if she stays consistent, if she does these things, she's going to build back and become a stronger and better runner.

Speaker 2: 1:16:59

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:17:00

So I think that's awesome. Like the world needs more, you know, movement as medicine kind of. Thing. And yeah, I love that. And if someone was like wanting to just move a little bit more exercise in their own way they're not like big into weightlifting, they don't really like running or doing forms of cardio Like what would you suggest for that person to do To keep up? On.

Speaker 2: 1:17:23

Well and I'm glad you brought this up, cause we didn't really talk about the physical side of recovery as much but, um, I think, just in general being active, I think anything you're doing, if you're, if you are a runner, but all you do is run and then the other 23 hours of the day you sit on the couch like that's, that's you got to think of what your body is doing the majority of the time and, um, there is definitely a place for if you do a really intense amount of training, you do need some rest time on the couch.

Speaker 2: 1:17:51

But I think, in general, just being active and healthy, doing stuff outside and getting outside. I think also, just if you are going to start a new form of exercise or a new type of training, making sure you know that you have the right technique, that you do some of those accessory training things. I think when people think about recovery and injury prevention, they think about, like the foam rolling and stretches, but a lot of what we do in PT is just normal exercises. So I think, for anybody that's wanting to start training or is training and wanting to prevent injury, just making sure you're doing supportive exercises to whatever you're doing, like we talked about with the strength training, with the running, um, and then I think, just being humble kind of like you said, to take it easy, to not just dive in, my example of marathon training probably wasn't a great one for that.

Speaker 2: 1:18:47

But but, I still kind of staggered it. I still kind of gave myself time to ramp it up. I didn't just go out and run 10 miles one day on cold legs. Um, I think just being smart about how you're getting into stuff and being humble enough to recognize you might not be the people that you see on Instagram doing all the crazy stuff quite yet, but but also knowing that, um, just because you haven't been an athlete and you haven't done sports all your life, I didn't consider myself the most athletic person in like junior high and elementary school, but I found a love for fitness just because I discovered like I could lift, I could do things that I didn't know I could do, and so and that's kind of the exciting part about health and exercise is, if you get into it, you can discover a love for certain things. Like you probably didn't know you loved running until you got into it but I hated it until three years ago.

Speaker 1: 1:19:41

Yeah, it's like my, my least favorite thing, but um, it is interesting. Like you, you learn a lot about yourself. You learn what you're interested in and what you like.

Speaker 1: 1:19:49

And, um, yeah, I, I always tell people, like for running specifically or like weightlifting, like don't go hot out the gate, just try and you know, just first jog around your neighborhood and see how you feel, and if you feel like you can keep going, then maybe do a little bit more, but don't push it. So yeah, I mean it's definitely going to be tailored to whatever you like, whatever your interests are, and that's one reason I love fitness is because it also teaches you discipline and consistency, just like how, if you get injured, like you're gonna have to be disciplined and consistent with your exercises to to actually recover and feel better um, and yeah, it's just.

Speaker 1: 1:20:29

It's interesting because everyone has their own path and I um, I think I told you a little bit upstairs like I'm trying to incorporate more mobility work into my own exercises. And like my next leg day is going to look like maybe one of my weakest leg days ever in terms of weights, but like I know what I'm doing, At least like with uh trying to exercise those other muscles and I hope that it works. Um, but again, it's all aimed to help with my other love of running.

Speaker 2: 1:20:57

Yeah, I think that's. Another thing is don't don't shy away from your weaknesses, because that's when you'll probably overload your strengths and then get overuse or or injuries there. Um, when you find something that you're not that good at, spend some time, even though it's humbling, spend some time to try to get better at it.

Speaker 1: 1:21:20

That doesn't mean you have to do like if you hate soccer.

Speaker 2: 1:21:21

that doesn't mean you have to go out and play soccer, but um it. I just think too many people like go into the lane that they're they like and they're good at and kind of ignore the stuff that they probably also need to incorporate and then when they get to physical therapy it's like guess what we're going to make you do some of that stuff that you don't like.

Speaker 2: 1:21:39

Um, and they don't like it, but they learn that that stuff even though it's not always the funnest, sexiest stuff, it is it's a good way to lay a foundation to let you do what you like to do better. So, like you said, the mobility stuff, um, I think an easy example is just like when you would have kids in sports. Like little kids think about the types of stuff they're doing. They're not spending the whole practice playing the game. They're doing a lot of drills, they're doing a lot of warm-ups, they're doing a lot of like talking about the technique and the form and some of that is boring for the kids and they don't. And of course, all the kids want to do is play the game.

Speaker 2: 1:22:19

But there's a lot of stuff they have to do. First, I think about, like my swim practices growing up. Most of the practice was like long swims, drills, different types of technique work, and some of it was not the funnest thing to do. But then when you went and raced, you had that foundation to kind of fall back on, your body knew what to do and you could just go. So kind of the same thing with recovery and building that foundation. Think of all the things that you probably would need to teach a kid if they were going to start this sport and start doing some of that.

Speaker 1: 1:22:52

That's a good way to look at it. Actually, I like that a lot and start doing some of that.

Speaker 2: 1:22:55

That's a good way to look at it. Actually, I like that a lot. Yeah, master the fundamentals. Yeah, because that's the biggest thing. If you can make a strong foundation, your injury rate will go way down. I mean, I use this example a lot because Spencer's pretty good at CrossFit right now.

Speaker 1: 1:23:07

He's a monster. He's really good, but if you knew.

Speaker 2: 1:23:12

it's funny because I've done it for a lot longer than he has, but he looks like he's done it for a lot longer than I have. But part of it is because he spent so many years bodybuilding and doing some of those accessory movements that we don't do as much in CrossFit cause they're not as sexy and fun and you can't do them for time as much. But because he took so much time to build that foundation, he can hop up and do the ring muscle ups and the crazy movements that look really hard and people will watch and be like what do you do to do that? And they don't like his answer. But his answer is usually you need to work on your strict pull-ups, you need to work on your accessory movements. Um, and he might be mad at me that I said that, but I just think it's yeah, I've known Spencer for years and like he's always been into bodybuilding and I just think he's a good example of the consistency.

Speaker 2: 1:24:03

If you know him, you know how consistent he is and it pays off in that. And that's why when people are like, oh my gosh, he's just gifted, I'm like he is, but a lot of it is also just the consistency that he's put into it. He is, but a lot of it is also just the consistency that he's put into it. And any any client I've worked with that becomes a really solid athlete and does really well.

Speaker 2: 1:24:23

It's the hours of of consistent things they've done. That aren't always the funnest things to do, but they know they're going to help.

Speaker 1: 1:24:28

Yeah, I love that. That's that's important in all things in life. It's like the little things add up over time and that's what creates the drastic change. The drastic result is the small minute steps that get you there. So I think that's great and, yeah, I mean fitness is a journey like make it your own and, yeah, do what you can to find what you love and build the base and just build it into your routine.

Speaker 2: 1:24:56

I think people's excuse a lot of times is I don't have time to do that but, then they have time for a two-hour run.

Speaker 2: 1:25:02

I'm like, just make it part of you do these five things before you run, or you do these things when you're sitting on the couch watching TV, or you just have to kind of build it into your day and make it consistent and then it becomes just a habit and I think a lot of those higher level athletes, you see that do all that stuff. They do it as habits, like they have a routine that they follow and it's built into their day and then they don't have to set aside this big chunk of time to do it all the time.

Speaker 1: 1:25:30

So I mean, you're a mom like there you go. That's everyone else's excuses can go out the window. But, that's awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:25:36

Do it with your kids. Yeah, do it with your kids.

Speaker 1: 1:25:39

I do love seeing that. Like you know, spencer and you guys will always like post stuff you were telling upstairs like he was like doing handstand push-ups. Yeah, he's trying to do wall walks up the wall.

Speaker 2: 1:25:51

That's so good, and but that's honestly what makes it so rewarding is you realize how much they watch you? And like and that's what I think is cool too with just health and exercise in general is you? You kind of create an example for your kids, you create a legacy for your whole family. A lot of people I see that have these bad habits. They've had them because their parents had them their grandparents had them.

Speaker 2: 1:26:16

Like, it's generational and it sometimes can be really hard to break that chain. So if you can start a healthy chain for your, your family, and start them out being healthy and having an active lifestyle, you're going to benefit. I mean, I'm a product of my, my mom and dad and and the the examples they've set of being active and healthy, and I just I think it's cool that we can do that for him. I also think he's just a different kid.

Speaker 2: 1:26:41

What he likes to do. But um, not many kids love to deadlift a kettlebell, but I mean that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 1:26:47

When Spencer's your dad, he's going to, he's going to be the next, uh, matt Frazier.

Speaker 2: 1:26:52

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:26:54

I think that's awesome, Like I mean, imagine the foundation that he's building just from your guys's example and seeing that firsthand. Um, you know he's going to go to his friend's house at some point and be like why are you guys eating pizza?

Speaker 2: 1:27:06

Like what the heck?

Speaker 1: 1:27:08

You shouldn't be doing that. But, like it's, he knows the what leads to like a healthy lifestyle, or or he's seen that through your example. I think that's awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:27:15

Well, and it's cool. I'll just add this in Cause I I just thought of this and, um, I think a lot of it is what he's seen since he's been born. But we also came across this study that I thought was cool is, the more active you are when you're pregnant and the more like strength training you do, it actually changes like the type of muscle that your baby has and the tendency they have to want to be active.

Speaker 2: 1:27:38

So, if you can be active through your pregnancy, you can influence how active your kid might want to be which. Spencer loved and I thought it was really cool too, but so and that was a big motivation for me when I was pregnant to just to still be active. I mean, you still have to be careful and dial some things back, but I did as much as I could when I was pregnant and I do think that that's part of how much he loves to be active, because from the get go, he wanted to move.

Speaker 1: 1:28:03

He's like I want to do something, I want to move, yeah, so that's amazing. How, um, how long into your pregnancy were you active?

Speaker 2: 1:28:10

Honestly, like the whole time. I yeah, at the beginning. I think there was a time at the beginning that, because I hadn't been pregnant before and I was like, oh my gosh, do I need to dial things back? There's a and I was super sick. So there's a bit of time where you're like really nervous. But honestly, the best I felt when I was pregnant was when I was exercising, because it kind of took my mind off being sick.

Speaker 1: 1:28:31

So that's, amazing.

Speaker 2: 1:28:32

I loved to do it. I probably in some ways maybe overdid it a little bit. Sometimes I I had to kind of rein myself in sometimes, cause you want to be as fit as you were and you want to do everything you were doing, um, but I do think that it helped me just have a better recovery afterwards, um, and just be able to be active afterwards. I don't feel like I lost a ton of fitness right away.

Speaker 2: 1:28:57

Of course, you kind of go through a dip but I feel like I'm back to being as active as I was before. That's amazing.

Speaker 1: 1:29:05

That's so cool.

Speaker 2: 1:29:05

I just think, just doing what you can, I wouldn't tell someone if they're not super active and they get pregnant, to ramp up the training. I think you need to stick to where you were at and kind of stay at that level. But you can definitely do things even when you're pregnant and even when you're postpartum and I mean I, I, I think that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 1:29:26

I saw my coach, the same one that helped me um during my marathon training. She has been running Um. She's eight months pregnant right now, but she's running like 11 miles.

Speaker 2: 1:29:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:29:37

Or like six miles in the mountains and it's obviously like a much slower pace. Yeah, and she's an amazing runner and her paces are like 11 minutes a mile. Yeah. But, for her. That's crazy slow. But like she's still out and doing it, so that's amazing. That kid's going to be like the next Usain Bolt probably A good runner.

Speaker 2: 1:29:56

Yeah, yeah and it's. It's funny Cause, like I, I liked to run, but I that was one thing I had to give up pretty early on. It just hurt too much to run for some reason, and other people I know can run when they're eight, nine months, so I think it depends on what you've done before and just how your body reacts. There's some people that just unfortunately, just can't do as much as they want to do when they're pregnant. But I do think that that that study was cool that is amazing.

Speaker 2: 1:30:22

That even just influences your kids, like their affinity to it, not even just their muscle, but how much they'll want to be active.

Speaker 1: 1:30:29

That's so cool, so that's interesting. Do you know, do you remember, who the study was from? I need to look it up.

Speaker 2: 1:30:35

I I've seen it a few times in different places. Um, I'll have to ask Spencer and send it to you. Maybe you can put it in the show notes or something.

Speaker 1: 1:30:42

I would love to cause that's awesome, like, yeah, what, what good motivation. Like, what better motivation than that? Like I want to help my kid have a great healthy life, and this might be a way to do it. So that's what's cool too, I mean you are a beast, though I will say that like that's that's impressive, that's crazy.

Speaker 2: 1:30:59

No, I think I honestly it's. It's been cool Cause at the same time that I was pregnant, there were a lot of high level athletes and like CrossFit and other things getting pregnant. So I felt like that helped me feel better about it, cause I was like, okay, they're still doing stuff, I'm gonna be okay. Um, and then I've had friends get pregnant since that have asked me like, am I okay to do this?

Speaker 2: 1:31:19

and and so it's just, it's cool to kind of go through that and learn, um. But I do think that that's just a cool motivation of all of it, um, that you want to be healthy so that you can be with your family and that you can leave a good legacy for your family to be healthy. And, at the end of the day, the healthier you are, the more freedom you're going to have later into your life.

Speaker 1: 1:31:39

Yeah, absolutely, and like we've talked about running and that kind of thing too, and in CrossFit and um, those things tend to come with, like you know, in running.

Speaker 1: 1:31:47

If you run a marathon you get a medal and they're cool accomplishments that you can do, but at the end of the day, what's important is that you're able to stay healthy late into your years and avoid a lot of those pains from not moving your body and a lot of it's preventable. I've seen my dad. He's 62. He's running in the mountains, he runs trails and he'll go on hikes. But then I see other 62-year-olds who can't and I think it's just because of lifestyle choices and, um, it's sad to see but also it's. It's reassuring and kind of hopeful to be like okay, well, I know, if I continue this and I continue working on myself physically and and and eat well, try and sleep well, um, I'll have a better future and hopefully avoid some of those ailments that come with age.

Speaker 2: 1:32:38

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:32:38

Age is one thing we can't avoid.

Speaker 2: 1:32:39

No, I think too it, just like you said earlier, I think it also just makes you a better person when you push yourself to do harder things.

Speaker 2: 1:32:46

I think like and and that's why people that are healthy, even when they're living longer, their whole life seems to just be great. Just because they're, they've pushed themselves and they've made themselves do hard things over and over again and that just builds your character and that, I mean that, for me, was the biggest thing in the marathon. When I finished I really, like you, feel tired physically. I felt proud of myself physically but honestly, for me that was such more a mental accomplishment than anything and just I had kind of had a hard year and for me it was just like I showed myself that I could do something I didn't think I could do.

Speaker 2: 1:33:21

Cause I if you would have asked me years before that, I would have said I would never run a marathon, I'm not a runner. So to to overcome that and say like I can do this if I want to. Um, I just remember finishing that race feeling so incredibly like grateful, like it was a huge. It was almost like a spiritual experience for me to just feeling like I accomplished something that never would have thought I would have done and that I I had so much fun doing it and felt so good Like I exceeded my time goal.

Speaker 1: 1:33:50

I was just like everything went super well, yeah, um that's amazing, that's so good, it really it does feel like that. Sometimes, though, like man, I just I suffered, for I don't know what your marathon time was, but we'll just say like four hours, yeah, that was my goal, really.

Speaker 2: 1:34:07

Yeah, 356.

Speaker 1: 1:34:08

There you go. That's awesome, that's huge.

Speaker 2: 1:34:10

Which never would have planned.

Speaker 1: 1:34:21

None of my training runs were on pace for that or anything, but the race environment does something.

Speaker 1: 1:34:23

But like, I think it's cool, it's like, hey, I'm going to go out for four hours and suffer and learn a lot about myself and feel accomplished at the end and um, it really is like a mental thing. And my first marathon was kind of the same. I was like this is embarrassing. But I remember like I was driving up um up the mountain and I just like come over the peak of the mountain and I was just like I start crying. I'm like I'm so glad I'm alive.

Speaker 2: 1:34:40

It's like so stupid it makes you emotional.

Speaker 1: 1:34:43

Yeah, it's like you just feel great and, um, I always, uh, I I've heard this thing about like chosen versus unchosen suffering and the chosen suffering that you do, which could be, you know, a CrossFit class or biking or running or weightlifting, anything like that. That's going to be difficult for you and it's going to test you. That's going to make you better aimed and able to handle the unchosen suffering that comes your way.

Speaker 1: 1:35:09

So you know, if you lose your job or like a loved one gets sick or you get sick, like you're going to be able to say, hey, I can, I know I can do hard things and I know I can get through this. Just by persevering and being resilient and I'll be able to get through it really, and I just think that's a. It's a huge thing. Like the reason I talk about fitness and and I'm glad I was able to have you on today to talk about it is because I think it trains your brain to say I can handle tough stuff, I can do difficult things.

Speaker 2: 1:35:40

No, I totally agree, cause I think that's that marathon has become kind of a a thing for me of like when I when I do go through something hard. When I found out I was pregnant in the middle of school, one of the first thoughts I had was, like okay, I ran a marathon, I. This is probably going to be harder, but I can do that. Like, it's it's and Spencer will use that all the time. He'll be like it's just another marathon.

Speaker 2: 1:36:01

You just do it, and so I do think there is a thing to making yourself do something hard and you're choosing to do it I. You made me think of that scripture, and like Alma, where they talk about the difference between being humbled and choosing to be humble. Oh yeah. Um that's a great.

Speaker 3: 1:36:17

Yeah, I'm going to throw that in the show notes too.

Speaker 2: 1:36:19

That's good I think, when you choose to be humble, you, you let yourself kind of experience what you need to before you have to, and then, when you are in a situation that you really can't control, you're so much better equipped to face it and handle it because you're like, okay, I've. I've put myself here before. I know how I responded. Now I'm being put here, how am I going to respond?

Speaker 1: 1:36:43

And it's not as scary and absolutely, and jarring, I mean it's that word resilience again.

Speaker 2: 1:36:49

Yep.

Speaker 1: 1:36:50

I love that you use that as as the name resilient PT like that's, that's perfect.

Speaker 2: 1:36:57

Well, and that's that's what I really hope it is for people. I I do love fitness and exercise, um, but at the end of the day, the main thing I've loved about it is just seeing the difference it makes for people.

Speaker 2: 1:37:07

I think it's so, so rewarding to hear how much better people are doing and that they can do what they love and and that's just been cool Like that. Like I think that's what motivates me to do it and that's what I like about it. It's not as much I could geek out about muscles and tissue and all that stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:37:25

But honestly, at the end of the day, for me the biggest thing is the function that people get from it and just that they can be who they want to be, do what they want to be, do what they want to do and not have to deal with pain and and all that stuff for so long.

Speaker 1: 1:37:36

I mean someone getting out of bed and being like oh, I can go outside and water my flowers If they weren't able to do that before. Like it just gives them their life back in a sense.

Speaker 2: 1:37:46

And they're grateful for everything there. I mean, I worked at the hospital today and I, whenever I work there, I come home and I I just feel like I'm more grateful and I tell Spencer all the time, I'm like I have nothing to complain about, because you see people in these, in these terrible situations that they didn't control, that they got sick or they had an accident or um, and they're in a hospital. I mean, the hospital I work at it's a long-term acute care type place, so people are in there for months, weeks, like and, and they don't get to have, they're not at home, they don't get to go to work, they, they live in a hospital and um yeah, I just I've seen a lot of people like that and just thought about how much we take it for granted sometimes that we just have the freedom in our day to do what we want to do and go where we want to go.

Speaker 2: 1:38:33

And when you think about it that way, you realize how much of a gift it is to just be, able to to function physically, and so that's always cool. To give that back to people and to let them kind of regain that and then see them be able to just appreciate it and not take it for granted is so cool.

Speaker 1: 1:38:50

Yeah, that is. That is awesome, like gratitude. It really is, and we have a lot to be grateful for, and our health is one of them and, like Allie and I, we pray for that or we thank the Lord for that every night.

Speaker 1: 1:39:04

It's like you know, we might not have everything that we want in life, but at least we have our health and that's like one of the biggest things that, um, I think you can be grateful for. Like I don't know if you've heard this quote, but you have 100 problems until you have, until your health is the problem, then you have one, and then you have one.

Speaker 1: 1:39:24

Yeah, and it's like that really is true. It's like when you're sick in bed, if you have the flu, it's like you just, you're just praying now like man I cannot wait until I'm better work.

Speaker 2: 1:39:32

Call out a sick of work yeah, everything else gets thrown out the window.

Speaker 1: 1:39:35

Yeah, it's like see you later. Like, oh, the job I was worried about, don't care anymore. Like it is what it is. It's like you just want to get better and I think that's amazing, like you're able to do that for people and they're able to see themselves get that freedom back. That's so cool, cool. So I think what you're doing is amazing. What Spencer's doing, you know you guys are both going to do some pretty great things.

Speaker 2: 1:40:06

I think so, um, but yeah, any anything else before we wrap up that you want to share or um, I don't think so. Just if people have questions, I'm I'm always happy to be a resource.

Speaker 2: 1:40:12

I I don't want to like advertise but, honestly, I love like when people just have questions just if they want to pick my brain. I'm not an expert in everything and I don't I don't pretend to be, but I like to help people where I can. So, um, it's funny when you're a physical therapist, or even Spencer in med school. We like family and friends all the time. I have this in my shoulder, I have this going but and people think it might be annoying, but I honestly it's so fun to me that people want to talk to us about that, because it's something we both love. So I just like to to help people when I can, and if I can't, I'll try to find someone else that can, or or information for them.

Speaker 1: 1:40:52

But where can people find you?

Speaker 2: 1:40:54

Um have an instagram page. You can link it, but it's just resilient, it's performance and rehab now that's what it's called um. And then, yeah, I, I do a little practice out of a gym, um, but I'm I'm pretty flexible anytime too awesome.

Speaker 1: 1:41:11

I'll definitely put in in the show notes. But yeah, it's been great talking today and I've learned a lot, so I can't wait to incorporate some of those things back into my training. But, um, yeah, thanks for coming on.

Speaker 2: 1:41:23

It's been great. Thanks for having me. This was fun.

Speaker 1: 1:41:25

Of course it is fun, and I love having people on, just like sharing their stories and what they're passionate about, and like uncovering, you know what got you into physical therapy and stuff and it's cool. It's like I just want to help people and like see them do better.

Speaker 2: 1:41:38

So I think that's great. I love that you're doing this. I think this is cool to hear from different people.

Speaker 1: 1:41:42

It's fun. It's been an education for myself, so I love it.

Speaker 2: 1:41:45

It's a good platform for sure.

Speaker 1: 1:41:47

Yeah, well, I appreciate it. You and Spencer are always welcome back.